Interview
with Charles
Peers, farmer
Notes
Interview date:
5 June 2002
Interview
location: Views
Farm, Great Milton, Oxfordshire. OX44 7NW.
Interviewee:
Charles Peers
Interviewer:
Andrew Wood
Transcript key:
AW: Andrew
Wood; CP: Charles Peers
Transcript
5.0.
AW: Okay, it’s, err,
Wednesday 5th
June, I’m at Views Farm interviewing Charles Peers, err, hear Little
Milton
5.1.
CP: Yeah, well it’s between
Little
Milton and Great Milton
5.2.
AW: Yeah, if
5.3.
CP: The postal address is
Great Milton
5.4.
AW: If I asked you to
introduce
yourself, how do you think you’d do that
5.5.
CP: How would I do it, I
would say, I
was Charles Peers, err, and I’ve been a farmer at Views Farm, Great
Milton,
Oxfordshire since 1974, but farmed all my life, mainly arable, umm, and
in 1988
we started to diversify, realising at that time, there wasn’t um,
sufficient
income from a, a farm of this size, without doing something else, is
that the
sort, is that how you want me
5.6.
AW: Yeah, yeah, that’s fine
5.7.
CP: to, to introduce myself
5.8.
AW: If you think of yourself
as a
farmer then, then, err
5.9.
CP: But I do think of myself
as a
farmer, because, cause, primarily, err, that’s what I do, but umm, in,
we,
we’ve had a difficult time, because, because, err, the, the, the, the,
the,
land or the estate I inherited, which in fact of course I got for
nothing, from
my father, is an old family estate, my family came to Oxfordshire in
the
1700’s, having made, made their fortune in the East India Company and
so on,
and, but by the time father got, came to it, he was the first one in
the family
actually to farm it, and my grandfather in fact was the first one in,
in, in
the family for a hundred years to actually earn a living, and, my
forbears
where, umm, members of the cloth, and they err, survived, well not
survived
but, they, they err, thought it was their duty to build churches and
schools
for all the villages, and so as I say, by the time my grandfather
inherited,
the estate had diminished to, I think it was a seven hundred acres, my
father
actually took over, but, substantial debts, err, and it was a very wet
farm,
father spent his life time err, draining it, and getting it so that, it
would
crop sensibly, which it did, but that left a tre, tremendous hole in,
in the
family finances, and by Sept. 1974, in fact, I suppose I, I took too
much of a
reaction, but it seemed to me that, the, the answer was actually to
find a
slightly smaller farm, which this was, err, and a very good farm, and
umm, sort
of try and do away with some of the debt, which is what we did, err,
and in
fact, we out very well and bought this very well, and so we did very,
very,
very well out of it, however as things progressed, and I always been a,
umm, a
restless sort of a person, I wanted to always do a bit more, or do a
bit
better, err, and by 1980, sorry, by 1988, things are getting to caught
up with
us, and umm, I had to look very seriously, that, that, at everything
that we,
we owned and capitalise on all, all our assets, and we had a range of
farm
buildings that really weren’t proving their worth, we got a farm yard
that was,
by modern standards, too small and too poky and we couldn’t get, we had
difficulty in, in getting, large equipment and large vehicles in and
out,
access was bad, concrete yard was breaking up, and I was faced with,
with, what
the hell do we do, we can’t afford to do this, we can’t afford to do
that, we
can’t afford to do that, we’ve got no money, or very soon we won’t, if
we do,
do it all, and we had this range of farm buildings which really weren’t
doing
anything and they were more adaptable to, to some, something else, and
we
thought, that, that, we, you know, we, we began to look at the
assets we had,
to try and make them, earn, earn us a living, and so, we, we after a
lot of,
thought and, and, and so on, over a two or three years, in 1988 we
actually built,
we converted this range of farm buildings into an office for the local
NFU, and
six holiday cottages, and started the process of actually demolishing
the
existing farm yard and moving it to the opposite side of the road
and
rebuilding, doing as much we could ourselves, and that stood us in very
good
stead for about ten years and then, as everybody knows in the last two
or three
years, things have gone down hill, very badly as far profitability in
farming
is concerned, and we weren’t, on, on, a farm of this size, we weren’t
in a
situation as it were, to whether the storm, err, and we had to make
decisions
as to, what the devil we were going to do, and always wanted to
redevelop some
more farm buildings, and completely move the farming operation to the
opposite
side of the road, and complete my sort of plan, and, we got consultants
in and
we talked about it, and obviously the, the development of three offices
which
we did last year, was, was, the, the right thing to do, but we couldn’t
see
anyway of doing it, and continuing farming, with farming profitability
on a
four hundred acre farm like this is, not really being able to sustain a
family,
and, and in fact it has to sustain two families cause I farm in
partnership
with my son, or, running the farm in partnership with my farm, my son,
so, the
decision was made, to rent the farm out so we had a regular income from
the
farm or to contract it out, and do this conversion which we did, umm,
and from
the 1st April last year that’s what we did and, and I
retired, as it
were, but in the mean time, I had umm, I’ve done various, various sort
of
committee work, but nothing err, really other than, I men, I was a
District
Councillor for a time, err, I was chairman of the Governors at Peers
school for
a long time, am now still on the Governors, so I’ve always had an
interest
outside the farm and about ten years ago, no, more than that twelve,
twelve
years ago I was elect, elected onto the board of Organic Farmers and
Growers,
which is an organic sector body similar to the soil association, so
everybody
understands what they are, we certify farmers, and processors, err,
and, and,
make sure they, they abide by the rules, err, and give them
certificate, and
umm, anyway, I’ve moved up the ladder in that and now, being available
as it were,
as a retired person, I’m now chairman for which I get quite a
substantial
income, which also helps, so I think that brings us ups to date as to,
thumbnail sketch, what I do, why I do it and err, who I am
5.10.
AW: So, your, your family is
a, you come
from a farming family did you
5.11.
CP: No, no, no, I mean my
father was a
farmer, but he was the first one in the family to farm, land owners, yes
5.12.
AW: Right, and was that land
err, err,
in Oxfordshire
5.13.
CP: Oh yes, yes, just down
the road, Little
Hampton, just the other side of Stadhampton, it’s, you could see it
from here,
only four miles away, we haven’t moved very far
5.14.
AW: So
5.15.
CP: No, I couldn’t move out
of
Oxfordshire that would be, that would be heresy
5.16.
AW: Did, did you learn
farming from
your father, or did you attend agricultural college or
5.17.
CP: I went to, obviously I
learnt from
my father, umm, but no, I went to, I went to, what was then a County
Institute
in Northamptonshire, it’s now, now a college, but it was a years
course, well
nine month course, a practical course, because I was never, not an
intellectual, I’m not, I’m not umm, umm, that well educated so I
wouldn’t have
gin, gone to, I didn’t have qualifications to go to university put it
that way
5.18.
AW: I think that you
mentioned to me
umm, earlier that err, you went into farming after national service, so
would
that be immediately after the national service you went to agricultural
college
5.19.
CP: yes it was, I did, I did
two,
actually I did go into national service until I was seventeen so I had,
I had a
year, I had eighteen months I think it was working on a, on a farm, as
a lad,
you know, learning the, learning how to work, the work, work ethic,
then I had
two years, and then I went to, yes, I went to agricultural college
after that,
that’s right
5.20.
AW: Was, was that eighteen
months err,
with your father, or
5.21.
CP: No, no, no, no, no, I
was away, I
worked on a farm in Devon, err, sorry and then ended up, just, no, wait
a
minute, I’m wrong, I’m wrong, I went to, I went to umm, worked quite a
long
time, before I came home, on a farm at Burford, and that was after
national
service, that was between national service and going to college, and
after
college until I came home in, in err, ’63, so that fills in that little
gap, in
time
5.22.
AW: What was it like at
agricultural
college
5.23.
CP: Brilliant
5.24.
AW: Did, did you, umm, was
that
something
5.25.
CP: Best year of my life
5.26.
AW: Was it
5.27.
CP: yeah, yeah
5.28.
AW: Was that, were you at
home at that
stage, or had you moved
5.29.
CP: No, no, no, no, I was in
effect,
working on the farm at Burford, and I went, went from Burford to
agricultural
college, or agricultural college and back to Burford, until father
decided he
wanted me home
5.30.
AW: What, what did you like
about the
agricultural college
5.31.
CP: Well, just, just college
life
that’s all, I mean we learnt a lot, we got, got stuck in, and it was a,
it was
a college with a farm and we worked on the farm, as well as in the
classroom
and that sort of thing
5.32.
AW: Did you, did you learn a
lot there
5.33.
CP: Oh yeah, oh yeah, well
it, it
confirmed a lot of things in my mind and actually wrote, wrote things
down, I
think that’s really what, umm, what that did and I learnt how to, you
know,
err, what, learnt how to write things down, and err take notes and that
sort of
thing, no that’s important, it doesn’t sound much but it is important
5.34.
AW: Did you learn a lot of
new things
there, I mean, err
5.35.
CP: Once I learnt a lot of
new things
because there weren’t a lot of new things about in those days don’t
forgot, you
know, things were just beginning to take off in the modernisation and
that sort
of thing
5.36.
AW: Say, say something about
the farm
at Burford, what was err, was it a mixed farm
5.37.
CP: It was dairy and arable
yes, umm,
quite a fair size dairy farm, I didn’t actually work on the cows, I
mean
obviously I helped out, but umm, err, you know, I did practical work
mainly,
but it was, it was, just a simple, arable, and dairy farm, and a few
beef
cattle, sorry, the annals of time one forgets, there was a beef unit,
which I
ran, that’s right, barley beef, one of the first barley beef units,
yes, I
looked after that, umm, it was, I think it was about seven hundred
acres, and
there two people in the dairy and three of us on the land, in those days
5.38.
AW: So you were doing mostly
the arable
work on the farm there, were you
5.39.
CP: Yes, yes I was, and the
arable, I
mean there were arable aspects that, that, that were actually like we
used to,
we used to grow kale and graze it and so that, in those days, we used
to have
to hoe it, umm, and so that was, that was for the cows, but we, we
still did
it, did the hoeing and did the planting, so it was arable work but it
was for
the cows, if you see what I mean,
5.40.
AW: And you’d be doing the
ploughing
umm
5.41.
CP: Yup, ploughing,
cultivating,
everything, drilling, bailing, harvesting, everything, yeah
5.42.
AW: And if you think about
the
equipment that you used then, is it very different to what, what
5.43.
CP: Oh yeah
5.44.
AW: What they do now
5.45.
CP: Well, a lot of
similarities, umm,
we’ve, just, just got bigger machinery now, err, we had a combine,
we’ve got a
bigger combine now, we had a bailer, well it’s a bigger bailer, we had
tractors, they have bigger tractors, we had ploughs and they’re bigger
ploughs,
principles are the same, basically, err, everything’s more
sophisticated, umm,
were-as in those days, if anything went wrong you got a spanner out and
you put
it right, now it’s so bloody complicated you don’t know, whether the
spanner,
the spanner would fit let alone whether it would do any good if you did
anything with it you know, that’s the trouble
5.46.
AW: So do you think that in
those days
they had things like agronomists
5.47.
CP: No, no, they didn’t
start for
another ten years after that
5.48.
AW: And the dairying, at
that time was
it tankers or churns, or
5.49.
CP: Churns, definitely
churns because I
can remember that vividly, because, that was during the bad winter of
’63 and I
was there, and our farm yard was like a sheet of glass for three months
and I
had to take the milk to the dairy in the churns in the back of a
Land Rover
for three months, cause we couldn’t get the milk lorry in, without the
churns,
and we used to, [inaudible] I don’t know ,that it was thirty, no,
[inaubile]
how many churns were, trying to think how many churns, probably be,
nine or
ten, something like that, and they were ten gallons each, so that was a
thousand gallons a day we were taking up, it was quite a big dairy
5.50.
AW: A thousand, about a
thousand
gallons
5.51.
CP: Something like that I
should say, I
mean really can’t remember, I really can’t remember, I can’t remember
how many
cows he had
5.52.
AW: And the churns, how much
would the
churns hold
5.53.
CP: Ten gallons
5.54.
AW: Ten gallons
5.55.
CP: Yeah
5.56.
AW: So err that’s a hundred
5.57.
CP: That’s ten churns, no,
sorry,
hundred gallons, not ten, hundred gallons
5.58.
AW: Hundred churns, is that
a hundred
churns
5.59.
CP: A thousand gallons would
be ten,
err
5.60.
AW: Hundred churns
5.61.
CP: A hundred churns, we
took ten
churns
5.62.
AW: Oh right
5.63.
CP: Sorry, I got it, got
one, see can’t
remember everything
5.64.
AW: [laughs] And in terms of
those err,
the, the err, the dairy, umm, would they feed on silage or, anything
else
5.65.
CP: Yeah, they feed on
silage, um, we
used to, yes, we had one of the first, well it was harvested with a,
flail
forage harvester, direct cut, straight, rolling straight into the
trailer and
then I think we had two forage harvesters, little ones, and they used
to stay
coupled up, and they’ve been [inaudible due to dog baking]whole, whole
training
on top of that one and go back and get another, yup
5.66.
AW: Did you say it was one
of the first
silage
5.67.
CP: I don’t think there was
many, much
silage done in that way in those days, cause when I first started , the
farm in
Devon, we used to cut it with [inaudible] and buck rack it, sweep it up
with a
buck rack and put it in a clamp, and that was the long, in the long,
and that
all had to be shaken out, and that was the first job I ever did, on
that farm,
[inaudible] when I first started work, at sixteen or less, shaking this
bloody
grass out, cor that was a job, cause they used to roll up quite tight
underneath at times, and, and that all had to be shaken out, otherwise
you had
an air pocket and a, all had to be laid out
5.68.
AW: So that would be like
bags would
they
5.69.
CP: No,no, just loose, just
loose, no
bag, cor, they didn’t come along until much later, no, it was all loose
and it
had to laid out in, we had clamps, and it had to be laid out properly
so that
it, you could press it down, get the air out and
5.70.
AW: Have the clamps changed
5.71.
CP: No, not really, no, I
mean they’ve
got bigger, they’ve got more sophisticated sides, what used to happen
was that,
they had these sort of wooden sides and struts and they used to sort
of, do
that, with the weight on the top, they, they’d do that when you get in
the
bottom and they weren’t safe and you know it just depends on what
particular
farm, some, some, some people dug them into a bank, just depends on
the, on
the, on the terrain really, but on the, the concept has not changed
much, I
mean they did have things like, vacuum silage and so on, where you’d,
you’d put
it in a clamp with plastic all the way round and then suck all the air
out when
you finished but, that went out of fashion because it didn’t work
5.72.
AW: And in terms of the
arable, umm,
was that wheat or barley or
5.73.
CP: Yeah, wheat, barley and
oats, yup,
yeah, more, of that sort of thing than, than, than the diversification
of crops
that we’ve got now, I mean, didn’t often grow beans, few beans, I used
to grow
beans when I first went to London in ’64, ’65, but there were a very
few of us
growing beans in those days
5.74.
AW: Sounds like the crops,
the dairy
were rotated err, over successive years
5.75.
CP: That’s right, I mean the
thing is,
with, with that farm, err, it had a fairly, for it’s time, a fairly
substantial
dairy herd, it also had some sheep, I’m sorry, I forgot about that, and
I used
to work a fair bit with the sheep, and so you had, you had enough stock
to keep
the fertility going, that’s what’s the [inaudible] swaps said, the
fertilisers
and so on
5.76.
AW: And err, at that time
would they
being used hybridised seeds or
5.77.
CP: Hybridised seeds were
just coming
in then, yeah, yup, yeah
5.78.
AW: So it, it sounds quite,
at the
time, quite a modern farm, they started to use silage, they were using
hybridised
seed
5.79.
CP: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh we
were always
up to, fairly up, all the farms I worked on were like that, yeah, oh
definitely
5.80.
AW: When you were at
agricultural
college did you specialise in err livestock or arable or
5.81.
CP: General agriculture,
there wasn’t,
wasn’t any specialisation, in those days, well not, there wasn’t an
option, in,
it was just all straight course in agriculture
5.82.
[mobile
phone rings and vibrates on table, CP answers the phone]
5.83.
CP: hello
5.84.
[recording
paused]
5.85.
CP: Don’t say it hasn’t it
hasn’t been
working [recorder] all this time
5.86.
AW: No it has been working,
yeah, it’s
just been very quiet, sometime, it has a motor but it doesn’t always
start the
motor that’s how it saves it’s battery and it lasts so long, but it’s
dam
confusing I can tell you
5.87.
CP: Yeah
5.88.
AW: So when, when you
started, umm,
when you left agricultural college, then umm, what was the work that
you
started then, was it a continuation of the arable work, that you’d been
doing
5.89.
CP: Yes, it was just the
same, I took
up my same position, virtually, and I gradually worked into a
managerial
position, in fact the chap I was working for, this was a Burford you
see, had,
had, sort of offered me a managerial job, umm, and at the same time,
father had
said, look I think you’d better come home because I can’t, can’t cope,
he’d had
something wrong with him or something, so
5.90.
AW: Was that a family farm,
would you
describe that farm at Burford as a family farm
5.91.
CP: No, not, well, how do
you, no, not
really, no, it was a chap who had some money, I mean he was a farmer,
umm, but
he’d got some property elsewhere, and he’d, he’d he’s one of the first
of that sort
of people, but he ran and efficient farm, you no, no messing about, it
was a
proper farm, but no it wasn’t a family farm, he’s bought it, and I
think,
fairly soon after I left he sold it actually, I’m not sure, I say
fairly soon
after, within, within ten to fifteen years he’s sold it
5.92.
AW: If you were to think
about that
farm now and err, just speculate off the top of your head, how you
might run it
today
5.93.
CP: Yup
5.94.
AW: What do you think you
would change
about it
5.95.
CP: Well, I don’t think
that, that,
that the thin Cotswold Brash is the place to have a dairy farm, dairy
herd for
a start, err, I think it was ideally suited to, to, to arable cropping,
err,
and I think it wanted, I think it needed a more, you, you know, with
modern
techniques and, and, and rotational, farming, you know, legumes and
that sort
of thing, err, I think that what it, I mean it was good for sheep but I
think
it’s a sheep and beef, err, and a arable farm, but not a dairy farm
5.96.
AW: Is that because the herd
size would
be too small
5.97.
CP: Yes, I think, I think
you see that,
that, that margins are such that, that, wasn’t very good enough grass
there,
you wouldn’t get the production out of the grass, that, that, you’d get
even
here, and this isn’t very good here, umm, the land was too thin and
that, you
know, just, not, not sustainable, whereas with sheep, umm, because of
the way
they graze and so on, it would umm, it would have been more suitable
5.98.
AW: When you say it’s too
thin, what do
you mean it’s too thin
5.99.
CP: Well, the, the, the,
there’s not
enough, har har, not enough strength in the ground, I mean the ground
is not,
umm, you need, you need, umm, well you need strong land to grow decent
grass
and, and, and wet, you see the Cotswolds aren’t, alright, they get more
rain
than we do here, funnily enough, but you, you need, you need a moist
climate to
grow good grass and you need, there’s a lot of stone in it, and, and
so, you,
grass is a plant that’s got lots of little roots and of course the, the
plant
grows off the roots and if there’s a stone in the way, there’s nothing
for it
to grow off, because arable, is, is, is an annual plant and it grows
every
year, it doesn’t need, doesn’t need so much water, and water is what’s
deficient on the Cotswold, it’s alright in the valleys, but this land
was, was
all up in the hill
5.100.
AW: Burford’s not far away,
what about
5.101.
CP: No, twenty mile, no
thirty miles,
twenty, thirty miles, yeah
5.102.
AW: But it’s quite a
different
landscape to, to what you have here
5.103.
CP: Totally, totally, yeah,
yeah
5.104.
AW: Were there any, umm,
contractors
working on that farm at the time at Burford
5.105.
CP: Yup, we used, we used to
get a
contractor in to come and do the threshing, and
5.106.
AW: They had a specialist
machine did
they
5.107.
CP: Yes they had specialist,
what did
he come and do, what else did he come and do, spread the muck, I think,
I’m
sure he did, we used to take it down and tip it in the hay, I think he
used to
spread it, I think, think, think
5.108.
AW: So when you said he’d
come to do
the threshing, do you mean he would err, have like a combine harvester,
or
5.109.
CP: No, no, no, he had a, he
had a, I
just remember him coming with a thresher, we must have, we must have
had a
binder, we must have had a binder, so it’s threshing corn, no it wasn’t
a
combine, because we had our own combine I know, we used to have two
little
trailed combines, that went behind the tractor and I used to drive one
and the
other guy would drive another, but I’m sure he came in, with a, with a,
with a
umm, with a thresher, no he had a big wirer tying stationary bailer
5.110.
AW: Have you been back to
that farm
since, do you know, do you know
5.111.
CP: I’ve driven past it once
or twice,
that’s all, don’t know anything, what’s going on there at all, no, but
I think
it’s much the same, I don’t think there’s a dairy herd there anymore,
sure
there isn’t
5.112.
AW: So then you came back to
err, this
farm here
5.113.
CP: No, I came back to err
our family
farm which is Littlehampton, which is, about four miles from here
5.114.
AW: So, was this actually
part of the
land or something separately that
5.115.
CP: What this place
5.116.
AW: Yes
5.117.
CP: No, no, no, I bought, I
sold
Littlehampton and bought this place
5.118.
AW: Oh, okay
5.119.
CP: In, in ’74, and this is
a hundred
acres smaller than that, and that was five hundred acres, this is four
hundred,
and a difficult farm and this was a nice farm and it was, so, it
realised some
of, some of the borrowing you see
5.120.
AW: You didn’t consider
selling off a
portion of the, the farm and staying
5.121.
CP: We did, we did, but we,
we fancied the
idea of this, we, we liked the look of this farm, and it in, and it,
and it,
it, it offered everything that, that, that we wanted, we did, we did
start
talking about, splitting the farm, but we needed, we needed to keep our
income
stream up, and we thought we’d be able to do it by this farm, err,
which we
did, and selling that one, and so that’s what we did, but we did look
at all
the options, but just at the time, this farm came on the market, we
thought
we’ll that’s the answer, it’s a good farm, [door bell rings] that’s my
man,
it’s a good farm, it solves all the problem, well it’s not all the
problem, but
it, it goes a long way to, to, to doing what we’re going to do
5.122.
AW: Okay
5.123.
CP: Alright
5.124.
AW: Yup, let’s stop there
5.125.
CP: We’ll have a coffee and
5.126.
[Recording
paused]
5.127.
[Unrecorded;
CP asks to hear end of recording to allow continuation of interview]
5.128.
CP: Well you’d, we’d pick up
the
threads of where we left off that’s all I’m saying
5.129.
AW: Oh, I see, obviously I
can’t
5.130.
CP: Well, whatever
5.131.
AW: Unfortunately I don’t
have speakers
to play it back through, yeah you can buy
5.132.
CP: Yeah
5.133.
AW: Speakers to put on to
it, but I
don’t have them
5.134.
AW: Okay, so you returned
to, err, your
family, to the family farm
5.135.
CP: Yes
5.136.
AW: Did you do much farming
there,
before this, then you moved up here, to this farm
5.137.
CP: Yes, we did eleven years
there
5.138.
AW: Right,
5.139.
CP: And I actually took over
from my
father in 1966, I think he became sixty five, umm, that’s right, so I
worked
for him, as it were, err, from between, September, not it was July,
July that’s
right, we got married in the September, July ’63, err until, September
’66 when
we formed a partnership, so I farmed in partnership with my father but
then
father took a complete backseat and did his other work, umm, father I
suppose
doing like I am doing now, and err, I, I was left to, to run the farm
on my
own, entirely
5.140.
AW: Did you, did you ask him
for that
partnership, or
5.141.
CP: No, no, no
5.142.
AW: Is it something, it was
something
5.143.
CP: It was something he, we
were, we were
advised by our then account, that, that was probably the best way to
progress
the gradual take-over of err, the estate from my father to myself, or
the
gradual had over, umm, and it was, it was, it was, we, we looked on it
as, as
the actual best way of, of, of handing, the family asset onto the next
generation as it were, and that’s how it was done, through a partnership
5.144.
AW: Was, was err, did you
have some
kind to celebration when you became a partner in the farm, was it err,
was it a
big, big thing for you
5.145.
CP: No not really it was
just a natural
progression, I don’t think we, we might have cracked a bottle of
champagne or
something, I can’t, honestly can’t remember what we did, well we might
have
gone out for dinner but, yeah, I don’t thing we did anything
particular, no
5.146.
AW: And how did, how did
that work in
terms of the, the running of the farm, would err
5.147.
CP: Well I mean, it, it, it
worked very
well, because, father, literally took a back seat, he had nothing more
to do
with the farm at all, other than my providing somebody to mow his lawn
for him,
every so often, err, which, which went against the grain, needless to
say, umm,
but no, it, it worked amicably and very well, and, and, because he’d
got other
interests, in much the same way as I have now, and umm, he, he, I
wouldn’t say
he lost interest in the farm, but umm, he did umm, he just, let me get
on with
it, which is by far the best way, I’m trying to do the same thing with
my son
now, with the things that he does, of course it’s slightly different now
5.148.
AW: Do you think the other
things that
your father was doing beside farming, do you think that provided some
kind of
model that you’ve taken up in, in the future, did you
5.149.
CP: No, I think it’s the
sort of think
that you do, I mean it’s something in the genes, that makes you do that
sort of
thing, but umm, I mean, no I didn’t err, I didn’t do it because of my
farmer,
father, I did it because either I’d been asked to do it, because I have
obviously people think that I’ve got some attribute or, err, I actually
wanted
to do it and it’s worked, umm, I don’t think that, I mean I’ve done,
I’ve, I
mean, I think I said to you, I was a District Councillor, a bit, I was
a Parish
Councillor, both at Stadhampton and here, umm, and I found that, that,
I was
doing all the work, you know, was chairman of Parish Council as
Stadhampton and
I couldn’t get anybody else to do it, so I left Stadhampton and became
Great
Milton Parish Councillor, and then within a year I was made Chairman
here, umm,
which is fine for a short period of time, but running a business you
don’t want
to be, err, Council Chairman for that long, because umm, you know
you’re
always on call, and with a business like farming, you’re on call on
your
business anyway, so, I, I, that’s the reason that I gave it up,
District
Council, I, politics came involved so I gave it up, because of that
really, I
quite enjoyed it, I was, I did, I did three terms, if I remember
rightly, I did
a term at Bullingdon, which was before, umm, local Government
re-organisation
in ’74, I did, I did a term of transition while there was a transition
from
Bullingdon to South Oxfordshire, and then I did a term as full South
Oxfordshire, and then I was invited as, as, as a Conservative and I
said that
I’m not interested in politics and local government, don’t mix, there’s
no room
for, and this is my feeling and I’m not necessary right, err, but I
said in
local government there’s no room for politics, and so I will not stand,
if, if
you’re going to put up a conservative party, err, person, you will be
in
opposition to me and I’ll stand as an independent and I’ll stand as an
independent,
and that I did and I lost by one vote, that’s how close it was, but you
know,
that was it
5.150.
AW: When you
5.151.
CP: rather than having
somebody telling
me what to do
5.152.
AW: Going back to the
farming and when
you, umm, you took over, did you say you had four years before you
formed the
partnership
5.153.
CP: Yup, yeah
5.154.
AW: When you formed that
partnership
5.155.
CP: Well no it was three
years wasn’t
it
5.156.
AW: Three
5.157.
CP: ’63 to ’66, yeah
5.158.
AW: Where there many changes
that you
instigated when you took on the farm
5.159.
CP: No, not really, umm,
gradually, yes
I did, umm but not immediately, umm, we, the writing was on the wall,
we, the
farm had got no stock at all, it was purely arable, father had got rid,
he used
to milk, he used to have beef and I started introducing cattle, after
I’d,
after we’d formed a partnership, we umm, in a small way, and we’ve
gradually
built up, we gradually built the cattle up, umm, then we let them go
back
again, but I mean, I started, I dabbled in stock, both on a sort of
vertically
integrated business with a retailer and so on, my own bat, we played
around,
err, we
5.160.
AW: So you
5.161.
CP: We shed staff, umm, got
bigger
machinery, more modern combines, more modern, tractors, you know, that
sort of
thing, the usual progression, as we went on, course they introduced
sprays,
cause you know, err, we didn’t use many sprays in, in the early
sixties, but
by, by 1970 we’d all got sprayers, bigger sprayers and so on
5.162.
AW: So ’66 when you took on
the farm in
effect, do you remember what sprays were being used at that time
5.163.
CP: MCPA and 24D, the only
ones I can
remember, oh and 245T and Denox and umm
5.164.
AW: Those are pesticides
aren’t they
5.165.
CP: No
5.166.
AW: Is that right
5.167.
CP: No, Denox
5.168.
AW: 245
5.169.
CP: No, 245T is a brushwood
killer,
err, Denox what the hell is that, but it’s lethal stuff, horrible
stuff, it was
yellow and we used to have it put on by contract, terrible stuff,
sulphuric
acids we used to use, umm
5.170.
AW: So that, were they
5.171.
CP: Copper Sulphate on
potatoes of
course
5.172.
AW: Were they hazardous to
all, to use
those
5.173.
CP: Very, very, oh yeah, oh
yeah,
didn’t realise they were, ‘til it was too late, I suppose I was one of
the
lucky ones, but yeah, we didn’t, we didn’t have any accidents, but
particularly
the Denox, I can not, can not remember what Denox stood for, but it was
very
common, but it was lethal, terrible stuff
5.174.
AW: Do you mean that it was
ham full, harmful
to people, or what
5.175.
CP: Oh yeah, oh yeah
5.176.
AW: Did people get sick from
it
5.177.
CP: Oh I think so, yeah
5.178.
AW: Did
5.179.
CP: That’s why they stopped
using it, aldrin
of course, as a seed dressing, we were, we used a lot of that, for two
or three
years, ‘til they discovered how, how dangerous it was, DDT, yes it all
comes
back
5.180.
AW: So there were actually
quite a
number of sprays that were being used at
5.181.
CP: Well they were
introduced, yeah,
there were, there were some, umm, but, it they, they didn’t really
start
getting used to any great extent until, until later in the ‘60s and
then by the
time the ‘70s came, the, the bad ones were beginning to be phased out,
and by
1980, even 24D, which was a bloody good chemical, was, was, was, was,
was, was,
um, being pushed off, because, it was, umm, dodgy, I think that had
dioxins in
it, umm, and MPCA which, which, we always thought was, was very,
very mild was
found not to be very good and so that was being phased out, and then
there
were, there were, de, de, derivations, and we used to put an MCPB, umm,
but
that’s what the beast is for, but that was one that was MCPA when you
had
clovers, they’d kill clovers, and then they were gradually mutating
them and
we got the safe chemicals that we’ve got now
5.182.
AW: In terms of the arable,
arable,
etc, I’m not exactly sure when winter wheat was introduced
5.183.
CP: Oh always, always been
there
5.184.
AW: Has it
5.185.
CP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we
always grow
winter wheat, winter barleys were not that popular err in the ‘60s, err
it was
in the ‘70s and ‘80s that they became popular but it was, I mean we
never, I
never grow a crop of winter barley until I came here, that was partly
inherited
fear from my father, he said, you’d daren’t grow winter barley here,
the birds
love it, or something like that, which actually was cobblers, we could
have
done, umm, but that’s just one of those things that, that we did or
didn’t do,
but umm, winter, I mean winter barley was always growing yes, don’t
miss
understand me, but it wasn’t grown to any great extent until they
started
getting the six rows, in, in the late ‘60s, early ‘70s, and, and
pushed, pushed
the profitability up, um, and of course, that’s, that’s some of the
problem,
that, that, that umm, all the, all the winter cropping is very much
more
profitable, but like everything else, anything that’s good has a bad
spin off,
and that’s what’s encouraged the tremendous infestation, I think, of,
of black
grass, and some of those sort of weeds, wild oats, not, but wild oats
were
always there, we always had a problem with wild oats, but black grass
was
almost unheard of in the ‘60s, err, and it’s now a real problem, and
that is
continuous winter cropping that’s done that, I’m sure of it, because
we’ve, you
know, in, in the ‘70s, late ‘70s, we started turning over to organic
production, and one of the things they insist on, in, our, in, in, in,
in, in,
umm, organic farming, is, is strict rotations, include, well it doesn’t
include, it ought to, but, but because you got, you stick to strict
rotations,
you tend to grow far more, umm, spring cereals, and, we, we, had, in
the fields
that we had a problem with black grass, we haven’t now, I’m sure it’s
purely
because, the spring cropping, yet the parts of the farm that are still
conventional, and there’s crops of winter wheat down there, it’s just
smothered
in black grass, it’s unreal, and I’d actually, we had, had we not
stopped
farming, we, we, I’d taken the decision that we were going to do far
more
spring cropping, and try and save the cost, of, of, um, of these
expensive
black grass, umm, spaced
5.186.
AW: Can you thing of umm,
changes that
you, err, instigated when you took on that farm, umm, you said about
umm, the
changes in labour, for example, that err, there was less labour, was
that,
people, was that them changing from employees to contractors, or was it
umm,
simply and pure being employed
5.187.
CP: Fewer people, but more
efficient
machinery, umm, more cost consciousness in what we did, err, and not
replacing
people when they retired or, or left, we didn’t, we didn’t, we never,
we’ve
never made anybody redundant, except a year ago when we had to, um, but
when
people decided they want, I mean we had one sort of key man, that, we,
I mean
we used to have an estate maintenance man, well he retired, we didn’t
replace
him, cause we had quite a few houses down there, but, umm, then we had
another
chap who was soon after I took over, he, funnily enough decided to go
on the
buildings, so he went, he went building, we didn’t replace him, ahh
and, and so
on, and, and that’s the way it happened, and, and, because, at the
time, the
Morris works were expanding, people were going in there, because they
were
paying good money, we just didn’t replace, we just had, bigger
machinery, we
didn’t start using contractors until, well I supposed the early ‘70s,
we were
using a few contractors when we came up here, but then you see we moved
into
contracting anyway, because we could see that, as, as a way of
utilising our
bigger machinery, and labour
5.188.
AW: So what sort of contract
work would
you be doing there
5.189.
CP: Well, we, we, we, we got
quite a
sort of a, err, umm, because we contracting for about twenty five years
in all,
err, and we got quite big, and I mean, about half my farming income
was, was
earned by contracting, or profitability, but we started off, we, we
tried to
specialise, rather than doing odd bits, we’ll obviously you did the odd
bit of
ploughing for somebody, a bit of cod really, if they gotton old that
sort of
thing, but we never set our stall out to do that, we started off by,
getting a
contract, ohh, with a company, umm, injecting, err, soil for the
winter, with
aqueous ammonia, which was a form of fertiliser, and that was quite
popular,
oh, ‘70s, ‘80s, and we did, we did a lot of work, and that enabled us
to have
a, better machinery and also keep an extra member of staff, because we
get our
staff down to, you know, if you want to carry a heavy weight, you need
two
people, if you’ve only got one, then you’re stuffed, and I’ve always
maintained
that you need, you know, if you want, if you want to send somebody up a
ladder,
you want somebody to hold it at the bottom, and so if you’ve only got
one
person you’re stuffed, so we always try to have a staff of two and that
enabled
us to do that, so we started off with, with, and we probably had about
a ten
year run with that
5.190.
AW: How did you err decide
to buy, or
go into that particular aspect of contracting, had you done some
research
5.191.
CP: Well yes, we’d done some
research
and I thought it was the thing to do, it was, was something that, that,
we
could do in the winter when we weren’t doing anything else, and we were
actually approached by a fertiliser company to do it for them on
contract, so
we had, we had, we had security of employment as it were from this
company, err
and they did all the work, of, of the actual buying and selling, I
mean, we didn’t,
all we did was just, they would get the work, and they would just pay
us such
us so much an acre for doing it, so it was, it was quite a nice,
simple, err,
system, to, to, to do, you know, they’d, they’d, they did all the, the,
the
running around and getting the work and that sort of thing, themselves,
which
of course can be very expensive, so that’s, that’s why we’re into that,
and it
didn’t need, it was something we could use our, they provided the
machinery to
do it with you see, all we had to provide was the man and the tractor,
so that
was quite good, and then they err, that particular company went into,
with the
same material, and by that time you had to have certificates to handle
hazardous chemical and all this sort of clobber, which of course we
had, they
wanted to move into umm, I thing they’re still doing it, to a certain
extent,
umm, straw injection, sealed stacks, and it turned, in effect, to the
label, it
turned straw into hay, or low quality hay, and that was very popular, I
suppose
it was early ‘80s, we did that, and we ran two lorries, cause the, the
soil
injection had gone out of popularity, so moved into that, we
bought two
lorries, and, and all we had to do was, HGV and we were trained up as
far as
the safety was concerned, so we did that for, about five years, so that
was
quite good
5.192.
AW: What would that involve,
it
involved injecting
5.193.
CP: Farmer would have a
stack of a
certain size of bales, which he would lay on polyethylene sheet, a
special
polyethylene sheet, presumably treated so that it doesn’t spread, and
then a
sheet over the top where they’d roll, seal the two sheets together and
we just
come along and poke a probe in, a meter long probe in between the
bails, and
just pour this liquid in, so much at a time, and we’d work out the size
of the
stack, they had to weight the bails so that we knew roughly what was in
there,
then we put, some, I forget what it was now, but so much per tonne of
this
stuff in and we got paid so much a time for doing it, simple, and that
worked
quite well, but them that, lost popularity and so I gave up, and err,
about the
same time, we then moved into to, err, some people that I knew quite
well, or
we’d been involved with them with the soil injection and in the stack
injection, the company was selling up, funnily enough around Burford,
umm, and
they, they were into silage making in a big way, they started off, when
maize
first started coming in, they got the big machinery and, and pioneered
that,
and they, hadn’t worked very well, or they, anyway, they, they, they
wanted out
and so I bought them out, and we went into that, and we were doing that
right
up to last year, we did sort of three thousand acres of grass silage
and about
a thousand acres of, maize silage, a year, umm
5.194.
AW: Would you have your own
machinery
for that
5.195.
CP: We had our own machinery
and we
had, we were lucky, you know, we, we kept our, err, labour force of
two, right
the way through, virtually the same people, and, and, and, and, my son,
and
before my son we had another chap, yeah, so always been three of us,
and umm,
we’d got, as it were, a bank of part-timers that come in, for that side
of it,
because we used to make a team up, and umm, that’s how we used to do
it, and
umm, it worked very well, and we had, yes, we had all our own
machinery, very
expensive and it was coming up for renewal, and err, I couldn’t see how
we were
going, and it had tailed off because of the lack of stock now, you
know, last
two or three years, it’d had begin to tail off, we weren’t doing quite
so much,
and err, so it all came, about the right time
5.196.
AW: When you moved, umm,
from your
fathers farm to this farm
5.197.
CP: Yup
5.198.
AW: Then did you see, the
opportunity
to start again in new crops or livestock, or how did you decide what
5.199.
CP: Well, I mean, this,
this, this,
this farm needed, a slightly different, farming regime to what we had
down
there, and different management, and, and, um
5.200.
AW: Is that because of the
differences
in land
5.201.
CP: Yup, yeah, yeah, this is
much
easier farm to farm, and we did everything much more quicker, so it, a,
it also
gave us more ability, a, it was a smaller farm, but b, it meant that we
could
have lighter equipment than we had down there, or if we had heavier
equipment,
we’d got, we’d got spare capacity to do work for other people, which is
what in
fact we did, but umm, yes, I mean, and, and, and, and it’s a much more
flexible
farm you can do much more with it, we’ve got some meadows that you
couldn’t ,
we can’t plough up, err, yet, down there we got some meadows that, you
could
but shouldn’t, but we did, and that was a mistake, learnt that one, so
we
didn’t plough up river meadows that flooded, umm, that, that was all
wrong,
well I’d stop doing it down there, that’s why I’d entered the, you
know,
introduced the stock, because, you know, we had to util, utilise the
land, umm,
somehow and, land that floods is, is, is okay fro grass, so we, we ran
cattle
down that through the summer
5.202.
AW: That was on your
father’s farm
5.203.
CP: Yeah
5.204.
AW: Yup
5.205.
CP: Yeah, so I mean, yes, by
the time
we moved here, technology of plant breeding had moved on and crops like
peas
and
5.206.
AW: In what way had it moved
on
5.207.
CP: Well pea’s and, they’d,
they’d got
better varieties of peas and beans, so, you could actually introduce
sensible
break crops, rape was beginning to come in, in the ‘70s, umm, we didn’t
grow
much rape, because I didn’t like the stuff, and I could never get on
with it,
but umm, I’d, I would manage it now, but, but, so we, we, we started to
introduce far more break crops and we did down there, umm, more, and
more
manageable break crops, what we used to do for break crop, at
Chiselhampton
which we wrong, but there was no other way of doing it, we used to grow
grass
for seed, that was an awful hassle, and, by the time I came up here, as
I say,
there were peas and bean, beans crops that, that were now, more viable
to grow
as a break, as so that’s, that’s the sort of things that we looked at,
and of
course as I say there was the rape as well, which we tried but didn’t,
but not
terribly successfully
5.208.
AW: That grass seed, would
that be
grassing grass or
5.209.
CP: Yeah
5.210.
AW: Yeah
5.211.
CP: Yeah, yeah, but it’s
very, very
tricky stuff to harvest, wrecked, and dry, got to be very careful with
it, but
we, we got good technique that worked well, but I would, I didn’t
want to get
involved, um, um, had I stayed in farming, we might have done a bit
more of it,
here, but we didn’t, so there we are
5.212.
AW: And you were keeping
livestock, was
that beef cattle was it
5.213.
CP: Yeah, yeah, we had
suckler cows,
well we’d had suckler cows there, when we came up here, I think we
done, we’d
stop having them, and then we started having them again here, about,
did I buy
them, probably bought, bought my first suckler cows up here, we used,
we used
to just fatten cattle, that’s what we used to do, yeah, that’s right,
to buy in
stalls and fatten cattle, and then, it was about, late ‘80s, that we,
we got,
we, we were, we bought a herd of, only twenty, only ever had twenty
suckler
cows to run on the river meadows and various other places, and err,
course
they’re quite good now, and I’ve still got them
5.214.
AW: SO was your decision of
what arable
crops to grow based on what you had done or the, the market price or
were there
other, other factors that err
5.215.
CP: Well, no, this is the
problem you
see, err, it wasn’t based on anything, it was based on what we’d always
done, I
suppose you could say that, which was wrong, we, we had, and, and, and
our
ability to actually, to do, sensibly, umm, you see in the, in the ‘70s,
there
wasn’t much alternative, you either had grass or you had cereals, and
if you
had cereals, oats weren’t very popular, barley and wheat you could
sell, so
that’s all you grow, we always grew a few oats cause I always liked
oats and
there was always a bit of a market for them, but it was easy and that’s
the
trap that we all fell into, it’s easy, people would buy what you grew,
and then
suddenly, suddenly we didn’t want food for our own resources, we wanted
cheap
food, and that’s what killed it, and we were not prepared for it, and
nobody
told us it was, got ‘a lookout, or anything like that, and we were just
growing
and growing, and we were growing more and more, and the cereal
mountains for
growing, we were blind, and we didn’t get ourselves organised
5.216.
AW: So did subsidies come in
while you
5.217.
CP: Oh no, always had
subsidies
5.218.
AW: Always had subsidies
5.219.
CP: Always had subsidies,
subsidies
came in, in ’45 after the war
5.220.
AW: I think they had a, had
another
name then, efficiency payments
5.221.
CP: Efficiency payments,
yeah, instead
of subsidies, yeah we used to have a wacking great cheque just at
Christmas
time, which was very nice, yeah, yeah, efficiency payments, actually
weren’t a
bad idea, cause they fixed the market price, if you didn’t make that
price,
that was was you see why, it was easy, that’s why you grow cereals,
because you
knew, you were going to get, whatever it was, twenty pound a tonne, and
if you
only made sixteen, the Government would pay you four, well they made
eighteen,
they paid you two, but you knew you were going to get twenty pound a
tonne, and
so everybody grow it, and that’s the problem, you get Government
tinkering with
things, they can do all sorts of things, and, and they just bugger it
up for
everybody
5.222.
AW: Do you think the
subsidies on err,
arable, made a difference as to what crops you grew
5.223.
CP: Oh undoubtedly,
undoubtedly, oh
yeah
5.224.
AW: When you were choosing
new crops,
for example, did you err
5.225.
CP: But you do now, what’s
the subsidy
go with that one, see there’s a subsidy on virtually any crop you grow,
oil
seed, there’s an oil seed subsidy, proteins, there’s a proteins
subsidy,
because you can’t grow anything, I mean if you were to, if you were to,
if you
were just to grow things, to sell on the open market and you relied on
the open
market, it wouldn’t even pay for the seed, that’s the problem, I mean
the whole
things geared completely, daft, I mean it’s right, I think probably,
you know,
if, if, I was organising it, I would say, alright, well, you know,
that’s
twenty pound a tonne or whatever it is, that’s, that’s the base price,
that’s
what farmers got to get at least that to, to, to make a living and he’s
obviously got to make a living to stay in business, and we want the
countryside, to be managed, well it’s always been managed, so that the
farmer
has got to stay, we, we’ve got to retain the farmer, so how do we do
it, twenty
pound a tonne for wheat, eighteen for barley, or whatever, I mean
that’s not
correct, it’d have to be a hundred and twenty or whatever, but that,
and then,
you educated the public to what food really has to cost, and so
sometimes the
price will be up here, and sometimes the price will be down there, if
the price
is down here, you obviously have got to make it up somehow, with a
deficiency
payment, do it that way, while what you do with the extra, you either
tax the
farmer or whatever, but you, obviously, that’s what’s wrong, they’ve,
they’ve,
allowed the public to, to umm, think that, that, they, that the public
has god
given right to have food on the cheap, which is absolute bloody
nonsense
frankly, there was a thing on the tele only the other night about house
prices,
no it wasn’t, well it was about house prices, but they comcaring,
comparing the
price of things, fifty years ago, when the queen came to the throne,
and now,
and houses have gone up so much, everything has gone up so much, food,
price of
the pint of milk, fifty years ago, was thirty five p, equivalent, what
is it
now, thirty five p
5.226.
AW: That’s also the case on
grains is
it
5.227.
CP: Much the same on grain,
no it’s not
quite the same, because I remember when I started, which was just after
that,
umm, first, first, tonne of, of wheat I sold, I sold at harvest time
between
fifteen and sixteen pound a tonne
5.228.
AW: Was this after you’d
taken over the
farm
5.229.
CP: Yup, umm, and now, it, I
mean it’s
been up to about a hundred and twenty, and it’s now down to fifty,
well, but
the problem, the dairy farmers have had the ability, to cut there
costs,
they’re, it’s bloody tight at they get now, but cereal farming, you
know, with,
with the price of machinery that you’ve got to have, and so on, you
know, it’s
just, fifty pound a tonne is just not on, just not on, I mean they’ll
be,
farmers going broke wholesale, I suspect, just can’t compete, what you
can do,
is get bigger, spread the cost, have bigger machinery, you know, it’s
the same
old story, but you can only go so far, and we’re, we’re getting there
now
5.230.
AW: In terms of where you
would buy
seed from, umm, has that changed over the years
5.231.
CP: Only in as much as there
aren’t so
many people selling seed
5.232.
AW: Can you remember where
err, bought
seed from when you started, when you took over the farm
5.233.
CP: Yes, we used to buy it
from the
seed merchant, from, course you bought it from the seed merchant but I
would
buy it, basically speaking, what we used to do, with seed and
fertiliser, very
common way of going on, you’d buy it from the bloke who bought your
corn, and
you paid him, at harvest time, when he had a tonne of corn off you, as
it
where, to contract, but nobody can afford to do that now, I’m a bad
example,
err, that’s probably not a quest you ought to ask me, or take my sense
of,
because, I’m a very loyal person, I like to give everybody my business,
you
know, put my business in, just a few people, and stick with them, and
hope
that, they will reciprocate by giving me the best price they possibly
can, and
I used to buy, I mean, for the last twenty years, I’ve bought my seed
from,
from a man I still deal with and he’s still a friend of mine, and he
was a
small independent chapee, because I prefer to, to deal with small
independent
people, I don’t want to deal with, the, the big men, because they’ll
push you
around, which they do, they get too powerful, so I’ve always supported
the
small man, and this one man, err, I used to buy all my seed from him
and all my
fertiliser until he stopped doing fertiliser and I bought it from
somebody else
5.234.
AW: Did, he live round here
5.235.
CP: Yup, yup
5.236.
AW: So would you say he was
an
agricultural wholesaler in a sense
5.237.
CP: He was, he called
himself, umm,
agricultural services, you know, he was, he used to work for, a grain
merchant,
and that’s how I got to know him, he used to buy my corn, that, that
corn
merchant was subsumed, or bought out by one of the big companies, err,
they,
this is now it really started and went he for them, and they gave him
the sack,
made him redundant, I said never mind, he’d got his group of customers,
people
round here like myself, who liked him, got on well with him, he had
their
business, and, and, or some of the business, and that’s how he went on,
and a
lot of people did that, he used to, he used to do, um, consultancy work
on
chemicals as well, err, he did start off by handling chemicals and then
when
the laws for storing chemicals got tighter, he gave that up, but he
would still
walk the fields and say oh you’ve got this, that and the other, you
want to put
so on and so on, and we’ll get it from so and so
5.238.
AW: So initially you sold
your grains
to err
5.239.
CP: An ordinary grain merchant, whoever there
was, I
mean, there, there, round here, there was one in Thame, there was one
in
Abingdon, and basically speaking I dealt with them, mainly, the one in
Abingdon
5.240.
AW: Do you remember what they were called
5.241.
CP: Yes, the Abingdon one was Harrison
Matthews, they
used to be, um, the old jail, that was there, that’s where, where their
depot
was, I remember going all round the old jail, they had different cells,
different lots of corn, and the one in Thame was Halland and Bush,
Halland and
Bush Were bought out by Dalgety's, by two or three different, they were
taken
out, they were taken over by a firm called Franklin's in Bedford, which
was
immediately taken over by Dalgety's And well, they’ve disappeared, umm,
Dukes
of Southampton, Bishop’s Walthum I dealt with for a bit, they were
independent,
Chipping Norton, they had a depot, umm, but yeah that’s the way it
went, and I
tried, when he gave up, we, he would buy a certain amount of my grain,
and
then, I decided, I thought well, we’ll try a co-op, because that's
really the
way we should be going, very much in favour of co-op trading, and there
was a
company; um, well they were, they were taken over by West Midlands
Farmers,
down in Gloucester, called Three Rivers or something, and that worked
quite
well and, and, and then they sort of disbanded, we had a grain group
and it was
sort of disbanded or I forget what happened, but I went back to this
other guy
who was trading with, with a big company, or biggish company, but a big
independent company, err down in Winchester, and umm, then they
were taken
over by Banks, err about seven or eight years ago, I dealt with Banks
Southern,
which was the same company, until I packed up really, through this
other guy,
but, it was getting to the stage where, not happy about it, because
basically
speaking with, with gain you see, you've got, about three buyers,
that's all, and
they're just, playing silly buggers with, with farmers
5.242.
AW: What are, what are those three buyers
5.243.
CP: For grain
5.244.
AW: Yeah
5.245.
CP: Well there's, Banks, err, Banks, Grain
farmers, and
Cargill
5.246.
AW: They're all national companies aren't
they, Cargill obviously
5.247.
CP: Cargill is international, Banks and
Cargill have
joined forces you see, yup, so it's only, only, it’s only Grain
Farmers, there
was, there was a big co-op called Viking Grain and they went bust this
year, so
its, its you know, that's some of the trouble, but, but, but you know
there are,
there are, two hundred thousand farmers, dealing with, basically
speaking,
three supermarkets, two grain merchants, four fertiliser
companies, haven’t
got a change, not a chance
5.248.
AW: Do you think they have a lot of control
5.249.
CP: I'm bloody sure they do, why have they
got bigger,
not only because of scale, scale of size, it’s, it’s because of um,
don’t sound
like scale of size, but umm, but got power, real power, and that’s,
that's
where we slipped-up in agriculture all along, we would not
co-operate, that's
why the French farmers are so strong, because they speak with one voice
5.250.
AW: Talking about umm, farming associations
or, or
unions, are you a member of the NFU
5.251.
CP: Very firm believer in the NFU, I don’t
agree with
everything they do, I mean I’ve served my time as Chairman, and I’ve
been on
one or two County Committees
5.252.
AW: Is that a local branch that you were
chairman
5.253.
CP: Yes, I’m Chairman of the Oxford and Thame
branch, err,
in fact I did two terms at it, which is enough for anybody
5.254.
AW: Yes, what sort of period do you think
that was
5.255.
CP: That was early ‘80s I guess, yeah, late
‘70s, early
‘80s, yeah, about that time, soon after we first came here, umm
5.256.
AW: Can you think of other ways in which
farmers, would,
would meet up, umm, beside the NFU
5.257.
CP: Well the farming clubs of course, some,
some clubs
are stronger than others, and I never, I got sort of personally, umm, I
didn’t,
I got too involved in other things, I didn’t really get time to go to
farm
clubs, but farming clubs, was very strong one in Thame, err, Nettlebed
Farmers,
Grattan Farmers
5.258.
AW: What sort of thing do farm clubs do
5.259.
CP: Well, they, they, they’re, they’re
discussion groups,
get togethers, they have meetings, they have speakers, rather like
young
farmers, as I say that assuming you know what a young farmer is, it’s
the same
sort of thing, it’s just a loose group of people, you pay a
subscription, there
is a national federation of farmers clubs, umm, I don’t, not having
done a lot
with farmers clubs, I don’t know the answer, but they, they’re not
political,
they just a, a gathering of farmers, you meet there, rather like the
WI, and
you meet at a pub, have a meeting, you have a guest speaker and then a
few
pints and home, social, but of course, you get a group of like minded
people
together and ideas are spawned, and from these various farming clubs
and
association, they’ve spawned things like, in this area, there’s Thames
Valley
Cereals, which is a, which is a, umm, buying group and selling group
for
cereals, Thames Valley pigs, same thing for pigs, so you’re getting
bigger
co-operation, and so on, and various other similar things, and
machinery rings
have been setup, err, and also big buying syndicates, there’s Thame
Cash
Farmers
5.260.
AW: Those, are those like co-ops then, I mean
5.261.
CP: Yeah, very similar, well they are co-ops,
they are
co-ops
5.262.
AW: They are co-ops
5.263.
CP: Yeah, you’ve got buying and selling, err,
and, and
umm, I’ve never been a member of a buying group, funnily enough,
although I
think that, cause I’ve always said, that, I’m, I’m in business to
produce
something, not buy something, so the important thing for me to do is
to, be in
a selling group, and they’ve never really got off the ground
unfortunately, but
the buying groups have, so you buy all your fuel, rather then, rather
then,
going to, err, you know, the individual oil supplier, you go through
your
group, err, and they, they will always negotiate a good price, may not
be the
best price you can get, but it’s always a good price, umm
5.264.
AW: That’s the kind of thing that Thames
Valley Cereals,
or Thames Valley Pigs would do is it
5.265.
CP: Yeah, but the other way round, you see,
they, they,
group together lots of pigs, to sell them
5.266.
AW: Oh right, okay
5.267.
CP: But you’ve got, organisation like Thame,
Thame Cash
Farmers and Syndicate Credits, and I can’t think of, of, cause I’ve
never been
members of them, but, that’s what they do, it’s rather like a French
Co-op, but
a French Co-op is all inclusive, you just deal with a co-op, you buy
everything
through them and they buy everything from you, and they are all
powerful, and
that’s why the French farmer has such a good deal all the time, it’s as
simple
as that
5.268.
AW: Have there been any moves to try and set
up that
kind of all inclusive co-ops in this area
5.269.
CP: Yes, and they’ve never worked in this
country,
never, ever worked
5.270.
AW: In, in this area or in the Thames Valley
5.271.
CP: Anywhere
5.272.
AW: Can you think of anywhere
5.273.
CP: Anywhere
5.274.
AW: Can you
5.275.
CP: I would think it’s more likely to work in
this area
than anywhere else cause they are, farmers round here are more of that
sort of
mind, but it’s never really worked here
5.276.
AW: Can you think of any instances where
people have
tried it
5.277.
CP: Yeah, because I’ve tried it myself,
funnily enough,
on, on machinery lines, about five years ago, the writing, I could wee
the
writing was on the wall, for farms of my size, so I wrote to everybody
of my
size and smaller, within a five mile radius, surprising the number of
farms I
picked out, I didn’t ask everybody, because I, I didn’t know them all,
I invited
them to come, at my expense, to lunch, at a local pub, and a seminar
afterwards, and the idea was to say, we’re all up against it, we’re not
going
to be able to compete against the big, big farmers, how about, us
getting
together, a group of seven or eight of us and deciding how we’re going
to work
and run our farms as an integrated thing, as I say, I sent it to about
thirty
people, seven turned up, and we ended up, by doing the combining for
one of
them, they were just not interested, independent, and now they’re
struggling,
and that’s typical, they will not change
5.278.
AW: What do you think put them off
5.279.
CP: Oh, the reason you’re farming is because
you are
independent, you know, you’re not, you’re not, you’ve not going to tow
the
party line along with everybody else, and, and, the fact that you know,
when I
want something done, I want it done, I mean, we, we found this with
contracting, nobody ever, ever, plans ahead, they just ring you up, oh
we want
out silage cut tomorrow, ah well we can’t come for a week, why can’t
you come
for a week, well I’ve got so and so, and so an so, they’ve, they’re
booked, oh
no, no, no you must come to me next, oh I’ll get somebody else then, I
can’t
work like that
5.280.
AW: Do you think that’s the nature of err,
growing
crops, it
5.281.
CP: No, I think it’s the nature of farmers,
they’re very
narrow minded, tunnel vision, blinkered, everything, they will not
think beyond
tomorrow
5.282.
AW: You said about the farming clubs and the
NFU,
they’re, they’re quite distinct are they, they have quite different
roles
5.283.
CP: NFU’s political, lobbyists and so on,
whereas the
farming clubs are social, farming clubs will, will, might press the,
the NFU to
say, look I think you ought to take this line, or they might get, a
recommendation from the NFU, to see, to get there opinion before the
NFU
actually does anything, but no, they don’t have any, sort of legal
standing at
all, or any standing, whereas the NFU is a recognised political lobby
and also,
umm, if that’s the right word, the Government will actually umm,
approach the
NFU for it’s opinion on various things, whereas it doesn’t with the,
with the
farming clubs
5.284.
AW: And have you found the NFU to be useful,
I don’t,
they obviously
5.285.
CP: Yeah, there’s a lot, a lot to be said, I
mean a lot
of people you could, you could criticise the NFU an awful lot, but, but
farming
would be all the poorer without it, it couldn’t, you know, it would
need, it
definitely needs the NFU or a, a similar organisation, umm, it can’t
afford the
NFU, and the only way the NFU can survive is the fact that it sells
insurance,
but umm, no, you know, it, the, it’s not a sustainable, you know, it’s
not
affordable by the industry
5.286.
AW: Do you think it’s representing farmers
well
5.287.
CP: I think it’s as repre, as well it could
do, yes, you
could criticise it, and say it’s got an awful lot wrong, which it has,
but on
the whole, no, it’s, it’s doing a good job, but like everything, um,
it’s easy
to criticise, not so easy to sort it out
5.288.
AW: You, you diversified on this farm
5.289.
CP: Yes
5.290.
AW: Into a number of things, can you just
take me
through, umm, when that happened and what
5.291.
CP: Well, yeah
5.292.
AW: What decisions you made, why you made them
5.293.
CP: We, well I mean, basically speaking,
in the mid to
late ‘80s, it was becoming obvious that we needed to, we needed to
increase our
income somehow
5.294.
AW: You were doing some, some beef and cereals
5.295.
CP: We were doing some beef and cereals, and
sheep, we
had sheep in those days
5.296.
AW: Many
5.297.
CP: We had about two hundred breeding ewes,
and, it got
to the stage where we really weren’t going anywhere and if we wanted to
survive, we need to, to do something, we got a set of buildings and I
was
looking at you know, our, our business in it’s entirety and, we needed
to put
all our assets to work, all our assets had to, had to give us an income
of some
sort or other, and so we started looking at, the bits of, well,
looking,
looking at our assets that weren’t, weren’t actually making any money,
one was
this house, we were living in it, but it wasn’t making any money, but,
we
weren’t in the position, if we’d, we’d have sold it, we’d have to build
another
one or we’d have to have another one, and we have a, we have a planning
restriction on it anyway
5.298.
AW: That’s an agricultural tie is it
5.299.
CP: That’s right, yeah, because, there’s a
bungalow across
the road that we built, [inaudible], cause there was no suitable,
workers
cottages here, the pair of cottages up the road, as I was saying, but
you
couldn’t put anybody in there, the way they were, so, [coughs] we had
to look
at what else there was, selling the land was not really an option,
because, if
you, if you sell that sort of thing then you’re not, you’re only going
to get,
you’re only going to get the income from the sale and once that’s gone
it’s
gone, you need something, to spend some money on, something, to
actually bring
some income in, and so we looked at the buildings and, and umm, the
first lot
of buildings that we, we adopted, we, we, um, altered, umm
5.300.
AW: Did you need to raise money to do that
5.301.
CP: Yes, yes, [clock strikes], we, we looked
at the
options as I say and, and that range of buildings were the least use,
so we,
we, we had then had look at what we going to use it for, and, we, to
cut a long
story short, we decided it would be holiday apartments and an office,
not
actually knowing, what the market would be for holiday apartments, but
we
thought, it was a fair gamble, tourist board said, but then the tourist
board
you see wanted people to alter, and they were giving grants, we got a
grant,
umm, from them, all the rest was done on borrowed money from the bank,
and we,
we went ahead, well as it turned out, we got all our budgeting wrong,
we were
unable to let for the rates which the tourist said we alter to be
charging,
but, the occupancy rates that they gave us were also wrong, by about
the same
fraction, in the right, in our, in our favour, so what we lost on our
income,
we gained on our, letting, and the moment we done it, before we
actually were
able to put the loan on long term, it was the time that the interest
rates went
through the roof, and for the first two years we suffered very, I
thought we’d
have to sell up, because we, we managed to set up, we managed to pay
interest
and that’s all we did pay, we didn’t pay a penny off, the bank gave us
a, a two
year holiday, capital holiday and that just saw us through and the
interest
rates came down and so we were fine, we fixed it and err, that’s all
paid off,
we paid that off in ten years, so that was good, umm, but, but,
obviously with
the Tourist Board loan
5.302.
AW: Did you employee someone to specifically
look err,
look after those, to manage them, to market them
5.303.
CP: No, whatever we did, we had to do
it, some,
something that we could manage ourselves, which we did, we were paying
a little
bit more farm, for farm labour and we had a chap who that was really,
while we
were doing it, was, in effect a farm manager, so I didn’t have so much
to worry
about the day to day running of the farm, err, and he left us soon
after that,
but we’d got, the farm, we got the business running so ti would run
it’s self
without full time, umm, of my attention, and that’s again, as
simplified, um,
um, almost a redundancy, because we didn’t replace that man
5.304.
AW: Just take me through what the, the staff
and their
roles would be at that time
5.305.
CP: Well, we, that time we had two tractor
drivers, and,
and, and a chap was a sort of working foreman manager
5.306.
AW: And, what, you also said about umm,
farmers
cottages, so, were you, are you, still providing tied cottages aren’t
they
called, for, for those farm workers, is
5.307.
CP: No, yes and no, one yes, one chap was in
the
bungalow across the road there, he’s still there, and of course he’s,
he is,
err, a financial burden to us, but that’s, that’s life, the sort of
things we
had to put up with, I mean he does pay rent now, which he didn’t
before, but
it’s not, it’s not, it’s not as much rent as we could get for that
house, but
on the other hand, it is more than we were getting before, and so in
the scheme
of things, it’s, it, it, it’s, it’s viable, but we could probably get
another
two hundred pound a month, because of the area that we’re in, the other
guy,
was living in a tied cottage, because I kept, there were quite a lot of
houses
went with the old estates you see, and I kept some houses, some we’ve
sold, and
he was living in one of those, and when we wanted to do the flats, out
first
development, I said to him, would you like to buy your house, and he
had a
favourable rate and he jumped at it and bought it, so he wasn’t, we
weren’t, we
weren’t paying for his, for his house
5.308.
AW: So you had two tractor drivers, farm
workers would
you call them
5.309.
CP: Yup, yup, farm workers, and then we had
the manager
who was living in the, one of the cottages, which is where my son lives
now,
yeah, and the other cottage which was already here, we let it out to a
guy, who
actually was working for me, err, when we first moved here, and he,
wanted to
get married and he wanted a house, so I said, well you can have that
one, cause
at the time, the other, the bloke that bought the house off us, was,
was,
didn’t need a house, he was living with his parents, so that’s, that’s
how that
worked
5.310.
AW: And you, the offices, similarly, is that
something
you’ve managed yourself, was that a, was that the same time as you got
the
5.311.
CP: Oh no, no, we only did them last year
5.312.
AW: Oh you did that last year
5.313.
CP: They, they, just, they haven’t been
occupied for a
year yet
5.314.
AW: They’re conversions aren’t, is that right
5.315.
CP: Oh yeah, there was a range of buildings
there, which
had to be demolished and rebuilt really, in effect
5.316.
AW: I notice the NFU is one of the tenants
5.317.
CP: Yeah
5.318.
AW: Is that, do you have any personal
connections with,
umm, the occupants
5.319.
CP: Not really
5.320.
AW: Did you advertise and find them
5.321.
CP: Well, [coughs], no the NFU have always
been tenants
of ours, they had the office in the other complex, when we first
altered it
[cough], because at the time, umm, there office was, in, in, North
Oxford,
Summertown, [cough], in the County NFU office, the County sold that
site, it’s
where Radio Oxford is now, and moved to a new site, and a new building
that
they built in Eynsham, and the Oxford and Thame branch, because there
was
nowhere else to go, had to move there, the, the then comp, the then
group, NFU
group secretary, who actually is a friend of ours and lives in the
village, I
said to him, would you like a local office, he said, too right, cause
it was
near his home, the staff lived around here anyway, they didn’t like
going to
Eynsham, so it just all fitted in, and now he’s retired, and umm, they
wanted a
bigger office, so then we moved them out of the original office into
one of the
new ones
5.322.
AW: Has it taken much of your time, to, err,
keep those
offices, and
5.323.
CP: I mean, took quite a lot of time last
year, when we
were building, but now, no, doesn’t take any time at all, well in fact,
funnily
enough, when you came, I, I’m actually writing the monthly bills out
for the
rent
5.324.
[phone rings]
5.325.
CP: I’ll leave that
5.326.
AW: So you still quite an active roll in, you
still have
an active roll in err, managing them
5.327.
CP: Oh yes, but there’s not an awful lot to
manage,
really, they’re almost run themselves, I mean, yes, if a tile falls off
the
roof then I have to find somebody to put it back on again
5.328.
AW: So, you’ve diversified in a number of
ways, haven’t
you, you, there were the holiday lets, err, and also recently you did
the
offices
5.329.
CP: That’s right
5.330.
AW: Umm, is there, are there any other things
that
you’ve been diversifying into, with the farming or, maybe
5.331.
CP: Well no, I mean, you, you, you could, you
could call
the contracting, when we were doing it, as sort, a form of
diversification, no,
not really, there’s my organic work that I do, but that’s hardly
diversification, it’s just a, don’t know, help to occupy my time
5.332.
[mobile phone rings
and
vibrates, pause recording]
5.333.
CP: Fax, telephone and email, we do quite a
lot on the
email now, umm, and they usually phone out of hours actually, because
it’s
private people tend to stick to there work, actually, I must go to the
toilet
5.334.
[pause recording]
5.335.
AW: Do you think you could have survived, if
you hadn’t
diversified
5.336.
CP: It would have been very difficult, I
probably could
of done, had I been prepared to do more physical work myself, and
possibly had
more secretarial backup, but when you’re getting older, there isn’t the
inclination to do that, and I don’t think I could have physically
done it, I
had the heart, heart attack as it was this year, yeah, so umm, yes, I
could but
I didn’t want, I didn’t think it was, would make sense
5.337.
AW: Were you spending much of your time doing
paper work
or other
5.338.
CP: Yow, that was another death knell, as far
as I was
concerned, it was just getting so complicated, it’s not true,
regulation, after
regulation, and
5.339.
AW: And those were related to, err
5.340.
CP: Well, just the ordinary, day to day
running of the
farm, cattle movements, umm, assurance schemes, every bloody thing,
everything
was against you, and it’s all people, outside agencies making money out
of
farmers, because they’re a soft touch, frankly
5.341.
AW: So it’s not all, it’s not all Government
err
5.342.
CP: Well, a lot of it is, but I mean the
point is, that
the point is that lot, under, a lot other industries would have more
strength
to them, would say no, get lost, I won’t do that, or, they would so
okay, but,
but, it, it, it, it’s going to be reflected in the end price of what we
produce, but we do, a myriad of, extra work, for which we get no
payment, no
extra for it, at all, I mean you could say, that, just take for
instance,
probably, the assurance scheme for cereals puts a pound a tonne on
cereals,
what do we get, we get less per tonne not more, because we have to
compete with
the rest of the world
5.343.
AW: What, what’s the name of that scheme, is
it FABL, no
5.344.
CP: ACCS
5.345.
AW: Right
5.346.
CP: Assured Combinable Crop Scheme, that’s,
that’s for
grain
5.347.
AW: And why do you need to be part of that
5.348.
CP: Well, because the supermarkets say, that
unless all
grain is produced at, unless it’s assured, we’re not going to buy it,
so they
say
5.349.
AW: But you weren’t selling grain directly to
supermarkets were you
5.350.
CP: No, no, but they buy it at the end of the
day and
they’ll say to you, Mr flour miller, and you’ll say to Mr corn
merchant, well
Sainsbury’s won’t buy my grain anymore, it’s got to be ACCS, so then
the grain
merchant will say to the farmer, look, well you’ve got to, it doesn’t
cost you
anything, doesn’t cost the grain merchant anything, but it cost the
farmer
something, and the grain merchant, will still take his thirty percent r
whatever, and so will you
5.351.
AW: So the grain merchant would be someone
like Banks
5.352.
CP: Yeah
5.353.
AW: Or Cargill
5.354.
CP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and now, in fact, they
have got a
price differential, but it’s the base price less if it’s not, not the
base
price more, if it is, and that’s the way they’re just treating us, all
the time
5.355.
AW: You say that’s the supermarkets, do you
think it
could be other people, millers, or
5.356.
CP: Well, I, I mean, I don’t know, that’s
just an example,
but, if you look at it, the supermarkets will fan the flames all the
time, if
they can get a better product for the same amount of money, they’re
going to
get it, wouldn’t you, can’t blame them for it, they’re running a
business, and
they’re running it very efficiently, but it’s our cost, all the time
5.357.
AW: Is that also the case with the cattle
that you keep,
the livestock, or is there any assurance schemes that you’re part of
there
5.358.
CP: Yes, they won’t, they won’t, they won’t
buy, they
won’t buy beef unless it’s FABL which is Farm Assured British Beef and
Lamb
5.359.
AW: That seems to be quite common, FABL
5.360.
CP: Yeah, I’m not against the concept, don’t
misunderstand me, the idea that we can sell rubbish has gone, those
days are
gone, but, with anything else, as the quality goes up, you pay more, do
you
not, you wouldn’t expect to go and buy a Rolls Royce and pay a Ford
Focus price
for it, would you, so why do you, and it’s the same with organic grain
as if
ordinary, ordinary grain, you’re getting a Rolls Royce product for a
Ford price
and that ain’t fair, and that’s what’s driving farmers out of business
and
round the bend and to secede and all the rest, I’m not against the
assurance
schemes, and I mean, there’s, there’s, there is, there is, movement
registration, legislation and so on, from the Government, because,
partially
because of foot and mouth, but it was getting pretty tight before hand
and
traceability of animals, it’s all, I’ve got nothing against it, but it
does
cost and awful lot of money, and it comes out of my pocket, and I’m not
prepared for that, I haven’t got, I haven’t go the, the, the, the, the,
the
stamina for that, the financial stamina, I mean, and so, I’m sorry,
I’ve done
what I’ve done
5.361.
AW: When you were selling the cattle from
farming, that
was only last year, I think it was, was it
5.362.
CP: Yup, oh, still are, cause we still kept
the cattle,
cause, cause that side of the business, no body wanted, so I’m stuck
with that
5.363.
AW: Oh right
5.364.
CP: At the moment, well we’ve only got, well,
we shall,
we have, fourteen calves to sell this year, and fourteen last year, but
they’re
organic you see, slightly different, slightly different
5.365.
AW: So there’s
5.366.
CP: But, but, but that market is not what
it’s used to
be
5.367.
AW: Right, so, is that, that’s another
assurance scheme
I guess, the organic
5.368.
CP: In effect it is, yes, it’s a very strict
one, and
it’s, it isn’t just, it isn’t just the way you treat your animals, it’s
actually the way you feed them and, but that, you know, that’s quite
complicated, I could go on for ages about that and I’m not prepared to
5.369.
AW: When, when did you decide to err, to rear
you cattle
organically
5.370.
CP: Oh, in the last ‘70s, no, sorry I beg
your pardon,
beg your pardon, no, early ‘90s, early ‘90s, but, but, you know, were,
were
doing it, on a very low key, and I mean I’m, I’m, all my, and, I’ve now
found
somebody who will, will rent my grazing so, umm, we’re going to rent it
out,
and if he doesn’t I shall just cut it, probably going to be cheaper to
pay
somebody to mow it, than it is, to keep cattle on it
5.371.
AW: So, in the, the early ‘70s, you say, when
you went
into organic
5.372.
CP: Hmm
5.373.
AW: the beef then, did you, umm, did you
suddenly do it
all over night, or did you
5.374.
CP: Oh well, they had to be converted, they
had to be
converted, takes two years to convert them, so we sort of did it
gradually, by
stealth, err, but obviously we made the decision over night, but it was
enough
to progress and we done cereals and so the next thing was to, to, run,
run the
beef into it as well, and doing what we were doing, cause we were
rearing all,
everything, everything was born on the farm, stays on the farm, right
the way
through to it’s, goes off, for slaughter, and that’s the best way, you
control
everything then.
5.375.
AW: Did you say that the, the, arable had
also gone or,
err, organic
5.376.
CP: Yeah, they all, we, we turned arable land
over,
before we, we started doing the, cattle, we did, we did the arable late
‘70s,
early ‘80s, and, and, umm, it was abut ten years later to be honest,
when we
did the, when we did the, err, cattle
5.377.
AW: Err, why did you decide to, decide to go,
organic
5.378.
CP: Well, because I thought it was, it was,
it was more
viable, and in fact it was, we were at the time, we were
recording everything,
well we were right up until the time we finished, on, on a computer,
err, field
records and everything else like that, and, and we used to run the two
side by
side, and umm, there’s no question, that, the, the, the organic always
paid
better, even with bad yields, it always paid better, so that near enough
5.379.
AW: Did you sell your, umm, did you sell the
err, wheat
was it
5.380.
CP: Yeah, well wheat, barley and oats,
mainly, lot more
oats, not much barley actually
5.381.
AW: Was it difficult to sell organic at that
time
5.382.
CP: No, still isn’t, not, not in cereals,
they can sell
any amount of cereals, it’s beef that’s getting difficult
5.383.
AW: And would you sell that to err, a
separate err
5.384.
CP: Yeah, there was, there was a grain
merchant who
specialised in, in organics, part of the Banks group, funnily enough,
but umm,
yeah, and we, we formed, we did form a grain, an organic grain co-op,
just to
sell to them
5.385.
AW: And how many other farmers were in that
organic
grain co-op
5.386.
CP: Well, probably about ten or fifteen of us
I suppose
5.387.
AW: Is it still going
5.388.
CP: Oh yeah, oh yeah
5.389.
AW: What’s it called
5.390.
CP: It’s, it’s called, I can’t tell you, it’s
part of Kerdells,
Kerdells, who are part of Banks, it’s just run by one bloke, I don’t
think,
it’s necessarily got a name, it was, to be honest it was never
constituted properly,
but we always used to get a group, group price on it, and by the time
that,
that I’d really got it going, I was getting less interested in selling
to it
and more interested in what, organic farmers growers, Organic Farmers
and
Growers, which I was Chairman of, would actually get out of the group
for
actually setting it up, that’s the way things go isn’t it
5.391.
AW: So the Organic Farmers and Growers, is
that err,
how, how would you describe that, is it a
5.392.
CP: Well it’s a certification body basically,
and there,
there are, there are about ten or fifteen of them in the Country, the
two
biggest are Organic Farmers and Growers, and the Soil Association, but,
Soil
Association is a charity, err, set up to promote organic farming, and
has, what
they call, soil association certification, which does the
certification, which
is exactly the same as we are, it’s just a company, umm, and all we do
is, set
the rules, which are based on, what, the EU directives, umm, and make
sure that
our licensees, our customers, abide by the rules, and that’s, and being
a
certification body, we’re not allowed to do anything more than that,
we’re not
allowed to get financially involved with our, with our members, because
there
could be collusion, which is fair enough
5.393.
AW: And it’s not like the NFU, having a
political role,
is it
5.394.
CP: No, although inevitably we do get asked,
to comment
politically on things, and do, but the, that’s not, that’s not, our
role, our
role is purely commercial, in, in taking a fee for inspecting, and
certifying
farmers
5.395.
AW: What did the neighbouring farmers or, or
your err,
farming colleges, as you might call them, umm, what did they think
about you
going into organic like that
5.396.
CP: Thought I was crackers, they don’t now
5.397.
AW: Why did they think, is that cause they
5.398.
CP: Well, phfwwugh [pursues lips and exclaims]
5.399.
AW: A risk
5.400.
CP: Can’t, can’t, risky, can’t, can’t farm
without,
without chemicals, we can’t farm without fertiliser, that’s why they
were
introduced, we got this, we got that, umm, I mean to a certain extent
they’re
true, I think they’re frightened as much as anything else, you know,
because,
because, because they’re up against it, they can just about do what
they’re
doing and see their way through, but they’re not sure, what they can
do,
without, this chemical inputs, that’s the problem
5.401.
AW: But it, it sounds like, your financial
situation,
wasn’t such that, going into organic wasn’t a risk for you
5.402.
CP: Err, it’s always a risk, yeah, oh yes it
was, but I,
it was a calculated risk, I, I thought we’d be alright, and we were
5.403.
AW: Were your family supportive of you, in
that
decision, or did they not
5.404.
CP: No, they weren’t, they weren’t, they
weren’t, they
weren’t, they weren’t of an age where they could have been, umm, I’ve
always
had support from my wife, obviously, but she’s been tremendous support,
could
have managed without her, but as far as, as, that decision was
concerned, it
was one that we took between us, not, because umm, the boys were too
young, in
those days, and I don’t think they, think it was the wrong think to do
anyway
5.405.
AW: Would you say it was primarily a
financial decision
to
5.406.
CP: Oh yeah, definitely, well commercial, oh
yes, there’s
no, if you’re in business, there’s no reason for, no other reason for
doing
anything other than, commercial or financial, because you’re in
business to
make money, or make a living anyway, I don’t make any money
5.407.
AW: Did you notice any changes in wildlife on
your farm,
umm, while you where farming, particularly before and after, you
changed to
organic crops
5.408.
CP: I think that, I think that there is
definitely, I
think there’s definitely more wildlife about now than there was, what I
can’t
say to you, what I can’t say to you is, why, I can’t say to you put my
hand on
my heart and say, well it’s since we’ve been, err, organic farming, I
do, if I
need to win an argument, but, to be quite honest, I don’t think, it’s
necessarily organic farming, I think, I think there’s more wildlife
about,
because everybody is more aware, I think also, these thinks go in
cycles
anyway, err, and it’s interesting actually, there was an article, in ,
the
Saturday Telegraph this week, by Robin Page, who often writes, as a
sort of
weekend supplement and every so often, they have a countryside thing in
which
he writes in, and he was saying, that, cuckoos, sparrows, starlings,
umm, are
in decline, I mean we, you don’t hear the cuckoo here as much as you
used to,
and the reason for it is, we’re not quite sure about the cuckoo but
certainly
sparrows, there are more sparrow hawks about, so there predators, and
same goes
for starlings, and probably cuckoos as well, and there are more magpies
about,
that’ll raid the nests, so it doesn’t do with agriculture necessarily,
it’s
because we’re not, going out to kill so much, so there’s, there’s more
for the
predators, and so the predators get, are getting more powerful, then
they’ll be
something that controls the predators and then, it’s a natural thing,
so,
doesn’t really tell you anything, I don’t think there is an answer to
it,
nature is a very fickle thing and the balance is very, very fine, yes
it might
be slightly better under organic regime, but I don’t think, if anybody
says, oh
things are much better now, aren’t you great and so on, they’ll say
yes, course
they will, but my hearts of hearts, I’m not sure, I’m not entirely
sure,
because if you, the chemicals that we use, they’re safe to human
beings, so,
they’ll, they’ll be safe to, to birds, if there’s anything that isn’t,
it’s
jolly soon found out and stopped using, like as in, Aldrin, DDT and so
on, so
umm, because you know, companies do make mistakes, you know, nobody’s
infallible, but umm, as long as you’ve got the mechanisms, which we
have, to
put right anything that’s wrong, then you’re relatively safe, and umm,
I think
that, that, after all, set aside, you see, you will have noticed, that,
some
people are spraying them off, well that’s better to actually spray off,
to
control weeds
5.409.
AW: You mean
5.410.
CP: For the wildlife, than it is to mow
5.411.
AW: Spray off, you mean apply a herbicide
5.412.
CP: Yeah, spry it with Roundup, or paraquat
or something,
total clean, you’ll see bear fields about, now any nesting birds,
they’ll be
disturbed if you spray, if you mow it they will be, because you cut
through the
nests, and so on, so, you know
5.413.
AW: Something I was going to ask you was
about, umm,
what role your family has played in farming, umm, your wife for
example, how,
how much of a role she was, was she playing on the farm with you
5.414.
CP: Well, she’s all, well it’s very, it’s,
it’s, it’s,
it’s very difficult to, hum, quantify what she’s done, a look at her
and myself,
as it were, in running the farm as one, we don’t have any specific
thing, she’s
always there, she probably knows a little bit more about stock than I
do, and I’ll
say, I’ve got a, got a bullock that’s, what do you think, and she’ll
have a
look at it or say, we’ll my dad always, because her father was a real
stockman
5.415.
AW: Was, did you meet through farming
5.416.
CP: We meet at college, yeah, umm, so, err,
there’s
that, when the telephone rings and I’m out on the farm, she answers it,
and
usually knows enough to give a sensible answer, or will tell me to ring
back,
she will be here, if I wants, if I want some money banked she’ll go to
the
bank, or if I want something she’ll go and get it, so, you know,
invaluable,
invaluable back-up, you can’t quantify what she does, but the business
would be
very much poorer without her
5.417.
AW: And your, your children do part, play a
part in the
farm
5.418.
CP: No, yes, I mean err, the oldest son, is,
is, works
with me now and always has done, well not always has done, but, alright
the
last ten years when he, when he was old enough
5.419.
AW: How old is he now
5.420.
CP: He’s thirty, thirty four yesterday, umm,
so he’s
always been about and, and, and done bits and pieces, and, and, he now,
is with
us and helps me tun, I suppose the estate management side of thing,
making sure
people have got what they want, you know, it’s all part of running the
business, he does the day to day outside business and I do the day to
day
inside business, of which, there’s, there is work to do
5.421.
AW: The outside business being
5.422.
CP: Well, it’s, again, it’s one of these
things that you
can’t quantify, we, we kept a tractor and a loader back, and we’ve got,
see
over in the yard also, we, we’ve got various people, we’ve got somebody
that
rents the dutch barn off us for, puts thatching straw in there, well
when this
thatching straw comes in from Poland, it’s got to be unloaded, so
Robert sees
to that, gets paid for doing it, we’ve got a chap who’s selling, stone
from the
yard, umm, to garden centres, well he’s forever shifting stones around,
so he
borrows a loader for that, so he’ll ask Robert, yeah, hires it out, and
he
keeps track of that, chap who’s running the farm needs a hand with
certain
things, so we hire, Roberts services out to him, or his tractor, umm,
and so it
goes on, it’s, it’s, it’s not anything specific, but just a load of
things,
there’s the grass that needs cutting, the amenity grass needs to be
cutting,
well Robert and I do that between us, sometimes he does it, sometimes I
do it,
just depends on how it works that particular week, he’s busy doing
other things
this week, I do it, err, it’s all work that’s got to be done, err, it’s
all
work that’s got to be done, somebody’s got to do it, it’s odd-jobbing
really,
fence needs mending, gate needs re-hanging, [mobile phone rings and
vibrates],
bit of concreting wants doing, whatever
5.423.
[mobile phone rings
and
vibrates, recording paused]
5.424.
CP: He [CP’s other son] used to, he used to,
he’s
actually, he went to Harper Adams, but he’s seen the light and he’s now
selling
Land Rover parts, he did do a bit of work on a local farm for a bit and
I was
hoping, that, that, um, you know, that. That, he would, perhaps, one
day work
with us, but he’s got this very, he’s got a very good job now, travels
all over
the country, and the continent, umm, doing this, this job, and, and,
that’s
that’s fine, and, and, and so he’s off, umm, he’s off our hands as it
were,
he’s bought himself a house in Bicester and lives there, and err,
that’s it
5.425.
AW: So that’s, did you say you had three
children
5.426.
CP: No, two, two, Robert and Thomas, Thomas
being the
youngest one and Roberts about thirty four, and Tom’s twenty eight,
something
like that, twenty eight, twenty nine, yes, twenty eight, he’ll be
twenty nine
next time
5.427.
AW: Do you think, either, either of them will
take on
the farm from you
5.428.
CP: Robert will, certainly I think, well, an
added
complication is part of the, part of the reorganisation that we did, a
year
ago, we actually formed a family partnership, so we’re all in
partnership with
it, umm, and umm, so that, so that, that in fact the land doesn’t
actually
personally belong to me anymore, it belongs to the family partnership,
although
I have, my wife and I niety eight per cent shares in it
5.429.
AW: So this is rather like, the partnership
you had with
your father, when you
5.430.
CP: In a way, slightly different in the fact
that it
involves more people, err, and of course time has moved on, from the
point of
view of inheritance laws and so on, so it’s, it’s, what we do, what
we’ve done
now, is geared much more to, to present day, than, than, than what is
was in
’65, ‘66
5.431.
AW: So since, April, April last year would
you, is it now
rented out, the, the
5.432.
CP: Yeah
5.433.
AW: Right
5.434.
CP: Yeah, yeah
5.435.
AW: And is he, is that person, the farmer,
you rent it
to, is he doing pretty much what, with the land, what you were doing
5.436.
CP: Yup, yeah
5.437.
AW: Do, do you
5.438.
CP: He, he’s introduced into the organic
acreage, he’s
introduced organic sugar beet, that’s the only thing that he’s, that
he’s done
differently to what we were doing, umm, as an experiment
5.439.
AW: So it is, in effect err, an organic farm,
is it
5.440.
CP: Yeah, there’s just, there’s just about a
third of
that isn’t organic, isn’t converted to organic now, and I’m hoping that
we
will, quite quick, convert that as well, when I say I’m not, I mean, I
in
effect, he’s renting it off me, but I’m, I’m still officially, the
farmer and
we still discuss what we’re going to do and I have a certain amount of
say in
what happens, but obviously if you’re taking money off somebody, rather
then
share in the profits, you have to let him have, the final say, so
that’s how it
works, and because, it would be difficult to, to, but I don’t want to
get, I
don’t think I want to get back into the, into, into, sort of having a
partnership in the actual business side of it
5.441.
AW: Did you err, did you sell your machinery
to him, or
5.442.
CP: No, no, we sold them all privately, we
advertised it
and we got rid of it all, completely separately, he didn’t buy anything
off us
at all, completely separately, he didn’t buy anything off us at all
virtually,
because he’s got his own equipment, that’s the whole point of the
exercise is
to, is to rationalise
5.443.
AW: Was he someone you knew, umm
5.444.
CP: yup, yeah, we’ve been, we’ve been working
together
for, oh about five years I suppose, he’s a neighbour, oh yes
5.445.
AW: So he was, was he one of your farm, farm
workers
5.446.
CP: No, no, no, no, no totally different, but
we, we
had, we started a chicken enterprise together here, which he’s now
taken back
into hand himself
5.447.
AW: Oh right, so that’s, so you, so err,
beside the, the
arable and the beef, you also had chickens
5.448.
CP: We had, also had chickens, yes we did,
they were
organic, organic free range chickens, on, on, a fairly big scale, umm,
which we
went into about five years ago, umm
5.449.
AW: It’s a big, you said, a big scale
5.450.
CP: Well there are eight thousand laying
hens, so
there’s, so now he’s having to, now we got, we got something like
fifteen
thousand eggs going off the farm every day, so that’s far
5.451.
AW: So quite a substantial part of the
business really
5.452.
CP: oh, yeah, yeah
5.453.
AW: If you had to, give some advice today,
who’s
thinking of going into, into farming, what, what would that be
5.454.
CP: Don’t, I’m not being factious, I’m saying
don’t,
what is the point, there’s no future in it at all, we got no, no help
from
anybody, the Government are not interested, umm, and, we have got a
cost
structure in this country which is higher than any body else’s, we are
never
going to be able to compete with people, who are prepared to work for
nothing,
and there are people in the world who, well, for next to nothing, and
they are
just as capable, of producing a tonne of grain as I am, so there always
going
to be able to produce it cheaper then us, they’ve got, probably, most
countries
have got a better climate, climate in their favour, they got low, lower
labour,
they’re got a Government that has, is orientated round agriculture,
because
it’s the base industry, we’ve, we’ve evolved beyond that, we’ve gone,
we’re an
industrialised nation, we’re not interested in, in, in low production
out of
land, we’re interested in, in factories and, and, and roofs and
chimneys and
things like that, and mass production, and, and mass labour, but when
you get
countries like, New Zealand, who haven’t got those resources,
agriculture is
the most important thing, you tell me which is, of the developed world,
where
agriculture is the most prosperous, New Zealand I guess, Australia’s
the same,
and then you go into the third world, where, what else can they do,
other then
scratch the land, so that’s apart from the strength of the pound, we’ve
got a
very strong economy, and we have had for some time, and that’s
crucifying us,
so you’ve got everything against you, you’ve got the climate, you’ve
got
labour, you’ve got the exchange rate, what else did I say, umm, and
natural
resource, and
5.455.
AW: It says that, it’s some, some people are
saying that
there’s a crisis in farming, do you think what you’ve said adds up to a
crisis
in farming
5.456.
CP: Yeah, I do, yeah, there’s no question
about it, and
I don’t see the answer, that’s what, that’s where it’s so critical,
without,
the general public, being made aware of why and how, and that what the
price of
food really is
5.457.
AW: Can I ask you, I mean, the crisis of
farming might
mean different things to different people, like for example, in the
foot and
mouth
5.458.
CP: Yeah
5.459.
AW: I don’t know if umm, that was
particularly
troublesome for you
5.460.
CP: Well, yes, of course it was, I mean, a,
to see
animals suffering like that, would be, and the carnage, and how it
upset the
farming population, and also the restrictions that I had to go through,
it
obviously cost me a bit, not as bad, as if I had it, err, although, if
I’d had
it, I would have been compensated better, and the total, total, I mean
it was
so disheartening, I mean what really hurt me was that, that, that it
really
hurt me, psychologically was, was the total disregard, that the, that
the
powers that be, that were dealing with it, for the feelings of the
industry,
you know, we were just machines, in effect, well that’s had an awful
lasting
effect on me, you know, I’ll never ever trust anybody else
5.461.
AW: Do you think you avoided some of the
crises in
farming, through the organic production, diversification, etc
5.462.
CP: it would be nice to think we have,
admittedly by
diversification and, and being careful, yes, I mean I have, I don’t
think
necessarily organic farming has saved me from anything, I don’t, you
see
although I’m very keen on or, on, on organic farming, please don’t
misunderstand what I’m saying, I don’t think it’s the panacea that
people say
it is, frankly, cause I don’t think, as I already said, I don’t think,
it, it
delivers wildlife, in the way that people think it does, it’s farming
and every
time you cultivate the land, you destroy wildlife, you have to, that’s
the way
things are, whether it’s wildlife in the fact that it’s little beetles
or
whatever in the ground, or whether it’s the birds, it’s still wildlife,
if
you’re growing something, and making a, and trying to sell something,
you’re
taking something off the ground, and so something else is suffering
from it on
the way, it has to, as, don’t, I, I think, I think it’s a safer form of
farming,
yes, and I think it does deliver a certain amount of things because
written
into the rules of organic farming is, that you must do this, you must
do that,
and those are things like, err, conservation things, like you mustn’t
trim your
hedge more than once every two years, you mustn’t do, you know, all
various
conservation things which you have to look out for, umm, so, it does
help, but
it, it’s not the total answer, the total answer is, to manage the whole
countryside without finance, you know, without, without, without trying
to make
any money out of it
5.463.
AW: Do you mean without subsidies, or
5.464.
CP: No, I mean with, with, you, you, you
don’t plough a
field because that will destroy something, you just let it go, then
everything
takes over, well we don’t want that, that’s just not on, because,
because, err,
you know, you look out there and it’ll all be scrub, and, and that’s
not what
we want from the English countryside, it might be alright in the middle
of
Africa, but it ain’t all right here, the public wouldn’t want it, so
that’s
where, you know, the, the public have got to pay, or somebody’s got to
pay
5.465.
AW: What do you think of the recommendations
of the Food
and Farming Commission to switch from subsidy production to
environmental
subsidies
5.466.
CP: I think it’s right, people want deliver
a, a,
environment, absolutely right, but I think is wrong is the way it’s
done,
because I haven’t got the confidence to do it, cause I haven’t got the
confidence in those who would actually pay me, to actually pay me,
because
they’re saying they’re going to modulate, you see
5.467.
[Door bell rings,
dog barks,
recording paused]
5.468.
AW: Yeah, I asked you, you said modulation by
the way
5.469.
CP: Well modulation is we get, we get
subsidies at the
moment, and, and the idea of modulation, I’ll take you whole, through
the
whole, the whole of this, cause you’ll see why I’m apprehensive about
it, what
the Curry report, umm, suggested, and if it all works out, I’ve nothing
against
it, that, ten percent of production subsidies which we get at the
moment, area
payments and so on, should be siphoned off by the UK Government, right,
ten per
cent of we’re now getting, for environmental issues, that’s what
they’re
talking about, now any money that’s modulated, or taken, siphoned off,
for
modulation, has to be match funded by the member state, so if they take
ten
million, off the subsidies to put into the environment, Gordon Browne
has got
to put his hand in his pocket for ten million to match it, to pay us
back out
again, and that’s why I’m apprehensive, because our Government has a
long
history, not just the present Government, previous administrations,
have done
exactly the same thing, when it comes to actually match funding
anything, they
don’t do it, and so the farmer, looses out, because he’s, he get’s ten
percent
taken off his, modulated off his payment, so he looses that ten
million, and
the Government won’t put ten million into it, so he looses the whole
bloody
lot, so he looses twenty million, an example of that sort of, and where
I think
the Government is, is, is, has got environmental issues wrong, we had a
Countryside Stewardship Scheme on, some of our land, doesn’t matter
where about
it was, or anything like that, for which I got, six hundred pounds a
year, and
that’s an agreement that runs for ten years, alright, that has come up
for
renewal, so in other words, I’ve had it for ten years, alright, they
want me to
renew it, they’re desperate that I want to renew it, I won’t, why,
because they
still going to pay me the same amount of money, we’ll you can’t tell me
that
six hundred pound is worth the same as it was ten years ago, they want
me to
lay a hedge, and I can understand why, it costs twelve pounds a meter
to lay a
hedge, and they’re going to pay e one pound a meter, that’s why I’m not
paying,
and that’s the problem, that’s the problem, they will not, we want
this, we’re
giving, we’re putting, and they always say and announce to the public,
we’re
going to put ten million into environmental issues, it ain’t any good
if it
comes down to, six hundred pound to me, they’re got to pay more, cause
I make
more than that, by not doing anything
5.470.
AW: When did you start doing the Stewardship
scheme
5.471.
CP: We’ll this was ten years ago
5.472.
AW: Right
5.473.
CP: When they first started talking, and it,
sort of
made sense, and the rules weren’t very tight then, and, and I looked at
it, and
it was on some river meadows and, and what was behind it, as far as I
was
concerned, I though, well, if I, there was, we were farming organically
anyway,
it means that, it says no, no herbicides, no fertiliser on that land,
well, I wasn’t
doing that anyway, so that was fine, umm, seventeen acres, it’s, well
you can
work it out, not a lot per acre, that’s irrelevant, err, and you have
to cut
it, one year in three a section of, after, but not graze it after a
certain
date, so I though well, that is going to cause me, probably to graze
one, one
less cow, so six hundred cow that equates, so that’s fine, I was happy
with
that, and I like to do things for the environment for goodness sake,
I’ve done
things, without being paid, like planting trees and so on, just to try
and
enhance the wildlife, and that, think that’s why the wildlife is also
better
than it used to be, because have planted a lot of trees, and, and, bare
corners
they’ve left and, and, they’re more aware, more aware, does that answer
your
question
5.474.
AW: Hmm, hmm, it sounds like you support it,
but, err,
you’re not sure that they will act, actually implement it
5.475.
CP: Yes, that’s right, at the end of the day,
and I
think this is what people tend to forget is that, my farm, and the same
with
any other farm, that land, is my means of earning a living, and I’m as
entitled
to a living as you are, so long as I don’t sit on my backside, and so
therefore, err, that, acre of land, every acre of my land has got to
work for
me in some way or another, and if, you, Mr Public, want me, to plant
trees on
it, and so therefore I loose a bit of income, you’ve got to make that
income up
to me, because otherwise I won’t do it, because I have to live
5.476.
AW: I think that’s all my, err, questions
actually
5.477.
CP: Well I hope it’s alright
5.478.
AW: Yup, thank-you very much, let’s just stop
this
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