Interview
with Chris
Freeman, farmer
Notes
Interview date:
6 December 2002
Interview
location: Goosey
House Farm, Goosey, Faringdon, Oxfordshire SN7 8PA
Interviewee:
Chris Freeman
Interviewer: Eka
Morgan
Transcript key:
EM: Interviewer
Eka Morgan; CF: Chris Freeman
Transcript
6.0.
EM: Introducing your self
6.1.
CF: Err I’m dairy farmer from Goosey in
Faringdon,
Oxfordshire
6.2.
EM: I missed, err if you just start again I’m
missed
your
6.3.
CF: Chris Freeman, dairy farmer living at
Goosey near
Faringdon
6.4.
EM: Brilliant, okay, lovely, okay, well, as
you know
it’s going to be a mammoth interview, we’ll, we’ll see, we’ll see where
we
fair, but I’m going to start with some, some quite big questions, umm,
thought
the first one is quite simply I think, which is, how did you get into
farming
6.5.
CF: Basically it was breed into me I suppose,
both
parents farmed and I love cows, I love the countryside so it was a
logical,
thing for me to do, I couldn’t, I, there’s no way I could sit in an
office all
day
6.6.
EM: There was no hesitation
6.7.
CF: No, nothing what so ever, same with my
two boys,
both my boys are going into agriculture, they’re exactly the same, no
hesitation what so ever, it’s just what they want to do
6.8.
EM: And would, had you done something else,
would it
have deeply upset your father at the time
6.9.
CF: Yes, I think probably would have, yes,
although he
did have, he was working jointly on the farm and with my grandparents,
his, his
mother, his father and mother who had a coach and haulage business so,
he
wasn’t totally a hundred percent farming but err, if I hadn’t have gone
into
farming I think, he’d have been very disappointed probably
6.10.
EM: You’ll have seen quite a lot of, changes
within his
lifetime, even before you started farming, but let’s maybe just start
with what
changes you’ve seen in the time that you’ve farmed
6.11.
CF: Where do you start, umm, the size of farm
is one,
and the units, back in ‘70s when I started farming, sixty cows you
could make a
living out of, you’ve got a job with six hundred now, you know, it’s
just the
way, the, not saying the, the price’s drop but the price relative to
all the
in-goings has dropped, all the costs have gone through the roof, but
the
milk’s, if you actually looked at it, it’s one of the cheapest foods
pro-rota
in price rise that there is, as far as the producer is concerned, I’m
not
saying it is on the doorstep but as far as what we’re being paid, I
think we
worked it out the other week and umm, the food for, had gone up about
three
times as much as the milk price has, that’s just on the feed alone, and
everything else was the same, it’s just the costs are forcing us out of
business basically, that’s the biggest change and you’ve got to get
bigger to
have the number of cows producing the number of milk to m, meet your
overheads
and, you see it’s just like umm, chasing your tail all the time, never
seem to,
ha, ha, you think you’ve got there and then they change the ball park
again and
you have, ha, ha, to, you have to start again, and get bigger
6.12.
EM: Has it effected your passion for farming
6.13.
CF: No, no I would never, I still want to do
anything
else, umm, and probably if my kids have de, but neither of my sons had
wanted
to come back, that would have, I might well have got out, that’s, I’ve
got two
sons here, so, one’s going farming, one’s back with me, the others just
finishing college this year, so, there’s no, you know, I’m, I’m
committed to
farming for the rest of my life and I will try and set them up so they
can do
what they want to do for the whole of their life
6.14.
EM: And where do you see the cause of that,
huge change,
where, where do you, do you think, w, w, what do you think is
responsible, for
that incredible change in, being able to cope on sixty cows and now not
even
six hundred
6.15.
CF: The, it stems from the Government’s
attitude really,
they, to keep the voters happy, they want cheap food, but they want us
to,
we’ve got the highest welfare standards probably in the world, for the
livestock, we’ve got the highest, I think overall, we’ve got probably
the highest
standards right across the board with the, the way crops are grown
generally,
you know, it’s very clean, everything’s done right in this country but,
then
they say, well yes but we can get it cheaper abroad, the, the cows are
kept in
slurry up to their waist in slurry and all, horribly ways in which
they’re kept
in some of the countries, but they don’t care about that, you know it’s
like
umm, a double standard, we want, we want everything kept better but
we’re not
going to pay you shit to do it
6.16.
EM: [cough], sorry, [cough]
6.17.
CF: Umm, then it goes on, I suppose then, you
have to
say, I was at a meeting the other week, a village meeting where, we’re
having
to sell the farm here because with the two boys coming back it’s just
not big
enough to, the family farm, it’s not big enough for us to earn a living
off of,
we’re taking a tenancy on a bigger farm down in Sussex, so we’re moving
to
Sussex, my next door neighbours, just sold up, his family farm been
there for I
don’t know how many years, another, the other neighbour who’d been
there for, I
think it’s eighty years, a family farm, they’re selling up next year,
and the
one down the road has been farming in the village for over a hundred
years has
been on the market so, everybody said, you know, it’s going to change,
this
village and as one person stood up, we’re all to blame, we all want
cheap food,
and umm, I suppose, I’m no different to everybody else, I don’t like
paking,
paying over the odds for food, you know I’ve, it’s the way we are, I
always try
and buy the cheapest, but I always try and make sure it’s British, but
with the
new, markings in supermarkets, it’s very hard to know what is British,
it’s
all, you bring it in to this country, it’s manufactured in, umm, cut up
in this
country and therefore you can sell it as made in, as British pork, and
it’s
wrong, it should be the area, it should be the country of origin, I
think, not
the, cause a lot, we had, I was quite active as FFA, the Farmers For
Action,
and we were in Tesco’s supermarket at Abingdon, having a peaceful demo,
no
there, the people in the store were, okay no problems, a lot of people
came up
to us and we said, we just don’t know how to get hold of British food,
and for
it, there was one example there, it had a big Union Jack for British
over the
top of the, cauliflowers, you looked in the cauliflowers and about
three-quarters of them, came from, were imported from France, well, I,
I, there
were some British ones there, so I suppose you could say that, but I
would have
thought if I was going as a shopper, I would assume that everything
underneath
the Union Jack was British, it would be a logical assumption but err,
it’s ways
of getting round the, the advertising standards I suppose
6.18.
EM: I want to ask you about Farmers for
Action, but
there are several things you’ve mentioned, I want to just ask you about
as
well, just to start with, have you visited farms abroad to, to, to
really see
the standards first hand
6.19.
CF: I haven’t but my son has, he’s been umm,
France,
Holland, Belgium, America, Canada so he has seen a lot of what’s going
on
around the world so, umm, he hasn’t always been to the worst ones, you
know,
but he says, even over there, the standards and the record keeping are
no where
lot, what they are in this country, and umm, so, I personally haven’t
but yes
we have
6.20.
EM: On thing is, when you touch that, it
does, the
microphone picks it up, it’s fine, it’s fine, fine, ha, ha, and also,
you say
that all the farms here are selling up, some of them have been a
hundred years
and
6.21.
CF: Yup
6.22.
EM: Is there a resentment, a resignation,
what’s the
kind of moral
6.23.
CF: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head,
resignation,
they umm, our neighbours they’ve been farming, they’re two brothers all
their
lives, umm, I think the el, younger one is seventy tow and they moved,
they’ve
been farming in Goosey since 1924, so basically that’s the whole of his
life in
Goosey, umm, and they just can’t make ends meet any more, so there,
they’ve decided
enough’s, enough. They want to have some life, none of his sons are
interested
in farming, his brother’s got one who’s interested in the farm, but
err, he
can’t afford to buy out his cousin’s so, that’s going to go as well
6.24.
EM: And you said everyone holds there hands
up and says
it’s cheap food, I mean is that what they really feel, they don’t resent
6.25.
CF: I wouldn’t say, I haven’t said everybody
said that,
but there was somebody at the meeting did say that, and umm, I think
you know,
people are, they, well I think it’s a case of people say they want the
local
farms, they want farmers, but, they want, they’re not prepared to put
their
hands in their pockets and pay for it when they can get cheaper food
from
abroad, I can understand their, their attitude, you know, none of us
like
paying more than we have to, but they can’t say they want farmers,
farming kept
here, there’s, they say it’s terrible that the farmers are having to
sell up
what, you know, what can we do, and that’s it, you know, either you
have to put
your hand in your pocket and give us, so that we can have a, I don’t
want to be
mill, as I said before, I never want to be a millionaire, I, I’m not in
farming
to be a millionaire, all I want is enough, I’ve got three children, all
I want
is enough to keep a shirt on their back, and food on their plate,
that’s all,
that’s all I ask and at the moment we can’t do it, it’s impossible,
with the
prices we’re being, the majority of it being, the milk prices has just
crept up
slightly but still, the majority of them are, the prices are way short
of,
break even, the arable crops can’t break even, I was at a big meeting
the other
week and umm, a lot of farmers are saying, reckon within two years
they, they
won’t be able to afford to buy the seed to plant the seed, the banks
won’t let
them, so it’s not just the livestock, it’s right through farming, it’s
umm, I
don’t think there is any part of farming, that I know of that’s doing
really
well
6.26.
EM: And do you think that all these farms
will be bought
by one, one person, they’ll be amalgamated
6.27.
CF: No, most of them are being bought by
London business
men, with city money buying them, they’re knocking the buildings down,
planting
trees in the fields to make a big country park which, by all accounts
and
purposes it seems that Mr Blair, that’s what he wants, that’s what the
Government wants, they want a park for all the people to come and, walk
in, but
what they’ve got to realise is that, someone’s got to keep that, mow
the grass
in the park and if you’ve got no farming, it, it won’t get done, and
the farms,
the countryside, just going to turn back to wild terrible stuff, it
won’t be
anything like we’ve got now, you won’t be able to see anything of the
countryside, it’ll be overgrown hedges, weeds, four or five foot tall,
nothing,
no livestock in the fields, not that there’s a lot in a lot of the
fields now a
days, but it’ll be less then
6.28.
EM: So there are a lot of separate buyers,
buying these
6.29.
CF: Yeah
6.30.
EM: And each one turning it into a little
haven
6.31.
CF: For themselves, you know, knocking
6.32.
EM: For themselves or for visitors
6.33.
CF: No, just for themselves, a few horses,
some, some
are gam, they get, they put trees in, they’re getting grants to put
trees in,
make woods
6.34.
EM: Second homes
6.35.
CF: Well, no, most of them are first homes
and commute,
you know, it’s, and well I can thing of, one, two, three, four, five,
six,
seven farms within two miles of here, that’s happened to
6.36.
EM: What would you, given the option what you
would have
rather, that state of affairs or one person buying it all and making a
huge
farm out of them all
6.37.
CF: I think one’s as bad as the other, ha,
ha,, umm, I
think it’s terrible that, families who have farmed the farms for
generations
can’t afford to carry on farming, I think it’s a travesty, I think it’s
so sad
that, these generations of farmers are being driven out, off the
land, they
reckon that there is, err, farmers now is the highest rate of suicide
in the
country, f, f, f, per, per, per profession, and I think it’s terrible,
so sad,
you know it’s, I suppose you could say I’m no longer a sm, family
farming,
we’ll farming as a family down there, but it’s not on a small family
farm you
know, it’s a eleven hundred acres, so it’s a, quite a big farm, but
err, we’re
still farming it as a family, but we no longer own it, you know, we’re
at the
beckon call of some else, which, isn’t my favourite way of going, but
at the
end of the day, if I want to keep farming it’s the only way I can do it
6.38.
EM: So, back we’ll go back, we’ll revisit the
present
and the future but let’s, let’s backtrack a bit, this farm is three
hundred and
sixty acres
6.39.
CF: Yup
6.40.
EM: How many, in your lifetime how many
people has that
employed, on and off
6.41.
CF: Well to start with, mum and dad, started
it up on
their own, we had, then, we had seventy acres, they then bought another
fifty
acres next door, which, when dad had his other business, so we had, he
wasn’t
here full time, so you could say they lived off it, but it wasn’t the
whole
income, umm, and we had a herds, herdsman, which, who we continued with
when we
were down there, and then, my son came back from college and the
herdsman
retired, which worked out very nice, within six months of each other
so,
basically it’s umm, been three people, well there’s myself, my mum and
dad and
either my son or my, the herdsman, err then we, what happen was our
neighbour,
he packed up farming, got out of dairy farming and we were able to rent
his
land, which pushed us from the hundred and twenty up to the three
hundred and
rent a bit of grass keep down the road off another farmer whose cut
right back,
and one across the Green, but umm, it’s all where people have stopped
farming, both,
all, both the land, all the land that we rented in the village next
door to
ours, is all, were farms, and are no longer farms, we just rent the
land, the
houses, other people live in the houses
6.42.
EM: And could you describe, just very
briefly, your
average day, if, I know at the moment you’re going to and from Sussex,
but if,
if, were you, if you can take yourself back to when you were working
here, what
would be your kind of average day, getting up and the amount of
different
chores, and
6.43.
CF: Well we, we start at, five o’clock in the
morning,
milking, and you have to feed the calves, clean out, bed up, feed the
cows, by
the time you’ve done all that it’s usual, that takes you through, well,
we stop,
I, I never have breakfast so I never used to stop, but my son had
breakfast and
then we’d have lunch about, for about, we used to stop for about half,
three-quarters of an hour for lunch at about half past one, then we’d
go back
out and carry on, feeding, bedding up, and start milking again at five,
and get
in about half past nine, ten o’clock at night, seven nights, seven days
a week
6.44.
EM: What about the arable side of it
6.45.
CF: Well, we have no arable here, we had
contractors
doing all the, growing all the maize here, umm, it’s going to be very
different
down in Sussex, because we’ve got eight hundred acres of arable to do
as well,
so, we have got a tractor driver down there, we’ve taken on the tractor
driver
who’d been there twenty six years, I’ve, I’m very great one, who,
admires
faithfulness in, in someone who, at work and I was only too happy to
take on,
he’s an excellent chap and we were, only too happy to have him coming
on board,
but it’s going to be very different when we get down there with the
arables,
the maize, you just, we just got the contractors in, because we didn’t
have the
bigger machinery here, we’re, we’ve just been and bought a lot down
for, for
down there on that land , that acreage, they used to come in, plough
it, drill it
and then we’d harvest it in the autumn so, it was, we were just doing
the,
livestock all the time, if I was doing it, seven days a week umm, oh my
son,
was, was going on basically, he was doing a fifteen hour day, five
days, seven
days a week, he never, when foot and mouth came, he never had a day off
for,
two months, he just did those hours fifteen hours a day, seven days a
week for
two months, and for him to come on to carry on afterwards, it shows his
dedication to the job, he’ll, it’s something he loves and he wants to do
6.46.
EM: And, what, just to understand the
contracting out,
so you, is that the land that you owned, you contracted out
6.47.
CF: No, we, we have, we got agricultural
contractors,
umm, what they do is they come and, they have their, you, you, you hire
the
plough the driver and the tractor off them, they come in and do the
work, and
then go home, because we can’t afford to have umm, big tractor and a
plough
just for our sixty acres, so you b, buy them, pay them to come in and
like umm,
a drills twelve, ten thousand quid, well, you couldn’t, it was cheaper
to pay
them I don’t know, what it be umm, nine hundred pounds to drill the
seed than
it would be to pay fifteen thousand to buy a new drill so, you pay it,
hire it,
basically the contractors, you hired them in to do the work for you,
you know,
they came did all our grass silage, because, there’s, we, we’d have,
you know,
we didn’t, have the labour force or the equipment to do our own,
because we cut
it down, there was basically, we were, there was just anthon, ant, my
son
Anthony and myself doing everything
6.48.
EM: And that did, that was profitable, that
you
6.49.
CF: No
6.50.
EM: buying, selling, no, ha, ha
6.51.
CF: Ha, ha, no, no, it’s not, umm, farming
hasn’t been
profitable for a few years, umm, that’s why we’ve made the decision
that we’ve
got to, you know, it’s a big decision, it wasn’t one we came out easily
but
we’ve had, we either had to, change or get out
6.52.
EM: And what do you parents think of about
the fact that
you’re , leaving Oxfordshire
6.53.
CF: They’re sad that, we can’t carry on with
dairy farm,
the family farm, but they realised that it’s just, the family farm no
longer is
economic, you, you can’t make a living out of it, you’ve got, you’ve
got have
more cows, bigger acreage, it just, there just isn’t eco, economics and
we got
as big as we could get here, umm, with these new, nitrogen vulnerable
zones that
have come in, where you can’t spread muck on certain fields on certain
times of
the year it mad it impossible with the number of cows to improve,
increase the
number of cows with the land that we had, so, that was another reason
why, we,
for having to move on, where we are, you got all the arable, you can
spread
muck in different places, err, err, various fields, different times of
the
year, but when you’re on a small farm you’re very restricted, ha, ha
6.54.
EM: And apart from things like tiredness and
things like
that, what, how, how have the occupational hazards changed in your
farming life
6.55.
CF: I don’t know, I think sometimes I must
feel like a
leaper these days, in socially, umm, oh God, you’re a farmer, you live
on
handouts, no we don’t, not on dairy, we have quotas, we’re restricted
to what
we can produce, we have virtually no, handouts what so ever, I think
our total
income, I think was about thirteen hundred pound, they, they’ve taken
all the
cull cows away, they all have to be slaughtered and burnt now, that’s
cost us
approximately five hundred pound a cow, for every cow we’ve got rid of,
so, say
you have twenty percent on two, a hundred and fifty cows, that’s thirty
cows a
year, so that’s fifteen thousand pound a year just gone off the bottom
line as
well, it’s all these things are added together, the calves they
started, stop
the export of calves, that’s made a different, at best about ninety
pound a
calf on, seventy, eighty calves a year, it, it’s all, all money coming,
going
out of the, off the profitability, umm, making it unprofitable to farm
I
suppose would be the best way of saying it
6.56.
EM: Umm, all the recent knocks like BSE and,
and Foot
and Mouth, but prior to that in your early days farming were there
similar kind
of knocks, or does it feel like it really has just been the last decade
or so
6.57.
CF: The last decade has been, is, I said to
my son, he’s
seen more change’s in the world than I, in the last fifteen years,
since he’s
been here, than I’ve seen in fifty years, forty eight years, both in
the world
and in farming, you think about umm, all the time I was young you had
the East
West with the Berlin Wall, that’s gone in his lifetime, farming’s been
decimated in this country in his life time, I, I, just so much has been
decimated, and so much is changing, and I don’t think, not just in
farming, but
most of it is for the good, I think there’s so much more wants doing
for people,
but all the Government cares about is if they’re going to get back in
power,
they don’t care whether, what they do, how it helps people, they just
worry
about getting back in power, and they don’t always tie up, two
different things
6.58.
EM: Can you, was the bit, was BSE the first
big thing
that really
6.59.
CF: Yeah, that’s the big, the other big bug
bear, we
never had a case of BSE, we’ve never had a case on this farm, and umm,
they,
they’ve band all these things that cow sales and that, calf sales,
cause of
BSE, we’ll we’ve never had one, so why should we be punished with them,
it’s
like umm, like drivers, driving down the road and getting banned
because,
cause, two thirds have park, err the, people have been, banned for just
speeding or drinking and driving, you know, if, if you don’t do it, why
should
you be penalised
6.60.
EM: How exactly did it penalise, it, it meant
your
6.61.
CF: Well, that, that, they drop, all the
prices dropped
on the cattle, umm, the pri, cull cows, as I said just now, we’re
loosing five,
its cut, dropped five hundred pound a cow from before umm, we’re lucky
to get
just around three hundred now, on the Government schemes whereas before
we were
getting eight hundred, nine hundred pounds, that’s a lot of difference,
when
you sell a cow and calf, there was a very good calf trade, export to
the cont,
you know, it was all done properly, the calves were well looked after,
just
taking them across, just across the Channel, now they’re being
transported in
good knows what conditions from Poland to France, what, why aren’t the,
upset
these animal welfare people getting on to that, surely it’s better to
have them
looked after properly and just popped across the Channel, umm than
having them
shot a birth, cause that’s what’s happening to most of them now,
they’re being
shot at birth, there’s one farmer, he went it, there was one farmer I
heard of,
the hunt went and, went in and shot seventy cows in one day
6.62.
EM: Where was that
6.63.
CF: Umm, that was down err, I think that was
actually
down in West Sussex
6.64.
EM: And, I hadn’t totally understood the
reason why
6.65.
CF: But, there, there’s no, no sale for the
calves
6.66.
EM: It’s just not worth
6.67.
CF: W, when you could sell a calf for a
hundred pounds,
you know, you could make a, you could keep them live for three weeks
just until
you sold them, you get them right, you could make sure they were looked
after,
you know if you had one ill you could treat it, if you’re not getting
paid anything
you can’t afford to do that, you, you’ve got to put tags in everything,
you
have to get passports for them, the easiest thing is just to shoot them
at
birth
6.68.
EM: And that, he was then finishing his whole
business
was he, or was he just
6.69.
CF: No, no, no, he was carrying on dairying,
but he was
just shooting all the bull calves, were being shot at birth, there’s,
and that
was a big herd and he, he, they block calves so they had a lot being
born at
one time and the hunt went in and shot seventy calves in one day, they,
it
destroys me seeing them come and shoot two or three here so what the
hell it
did to them I don’t, I, I, I couldn’t stand that, it’s a horrible
thought, I
hate it, I ab, we shoot them cause we, we’ve had nothing else we can do
with
them, nobody wants them, now especially with this twenty day stand
still, it’s
made it even worse, we still, you can’t umm, very difficult for people
to take
cattle onto there farm when they’re got a twenty day standstill so
6.70.
EM: Can you explain the twenty day standstill
6.71.
CF: If you bring a cow onto your farm, you
cannot sell,
move an animal off it for twenty days, unless it’s going for slaughter,
whether
it’s as, as a fat animal for food or whether it’s going to the,
abattoir,
that’s the only ways you can move them, an animal off, if you, if you
watering
that animal for twenty days, so if they want to, a lot of calf rearers,
they
buy calves, rear them for a while, and then sell them as wean calves,
well, if
you’ve got to keep them stood still for three weeks, you can’t, if
you’ve got a
batch to come that means you can’t buy a calf in for three weeks before
hand,
and it’s just crippling a lot of the businesses
6.72.
EM: And that’s since foot and mouth
6.73.
CF: Yes, how, how much good it does, I can
understand it
on the sheep, but I really don’t, with dairy, and beef, I really don’t
see what
they’re hoping to gain by doing it, I, I, really can’t see that, the
sheep were
being moved around a lot they, they’ve, they’ve said that but, fine, if
that’s
what they want to start with sheep, but why cripple every other facet
of
farming as well, by the same rule
6.74.
EM: So what would’ve your solution been post
foot and
mouth, for
6.75.
CF: Keep the cow and shoot the bloody
politicians, ha,
ha, ha, umm, I supported Chris Day, there’s a hun, homeopathic remedy
that will
stop the spread of foot and mouth, it’s been proven, but because there
was no
gain in it, it meant the Government couldn’t shoot the cows, the
animals, they,
cause a friend of mine who lost his, herd up in Cumberland, in Cumbria,
they,
they’re, they’re friends searched and all the compensation, came from
the
European Stock Production Fund, apparently, Tony Blair had agreed to
reduce the
number of specialist sheep in this country, two years, two years before
Foot
and Mouth, which I didn’t know, nobody knew, this came to light
afterwards and,
if they’d have stopped the spread of Foot and Mouth, they wouldn’t have
been
able to, do it, I, you can call me cynical, but I, nothing will
convince me
from, the chain of events and what I’ve been told by, from a foreign
diplomat
that they know that it wasn’t accidental, the out break of Foot and
Mouth was
not accidental, it was deliberately put on us, and I’ve, I find it very
difficult
to believe, to doubt that, the chain of events do rather point that way
to me
6.76.
EM: What about the aspect that it so crippled
the
tourism industry as well, you wouldn’t have thought a Government would
want
that
6.77.
CF: I think they, I don’t think they ever
dreamt it
would go the way it, it went, umm, it totally got out of control, he
was
totally focused, it was, it what cames back to what I said earlier on,
all he
was worried about was getting, he new that the, we’ve heard this year,
just
recently, when he did the, that he, that he’s got their sums wrong,
it’s going
to be a lot harder than what they thought it was going to be,
economically,
Gordon Browne said, he was desperate to hold the, election then, while
everything was looking good, and he was so desperate to get back in,
that he
didn’t worry about, the Foot and Mouth, until he suddenly, it got out
of hand,
and he had no choice
6.78.
EM: So you think it was a strategy to cut
down on the
sheep stock
6.79.
CF: I think so
6.80.
EM: Not the, not the cattle
6.81.
CF: I think so, why my, I know someone who
works in
Newcastle docks, why was the MAFF bringing in boat loads, Ministry of
Agriculture, bring in boat loads of timber into the North East in
January, in
the Jan, the month before Foot and Mouth started
6.82.
EM: You thing it came from timber
6.83.
CF: No, they were importing the timber to
burn the
stock, they’d already started, that, this was all planned, I, I’m, you
can call
me cynical, but this is the way I see it, and I’m not accusing anybody
but it’s
the way I see the chain of events, it’s a well known fact, that the
viral of
this strain went missing from Portland Down, err, Foot and Mouth di,
virus, I
was, it, this, it is supposedly just after, found to have gone just
after some
Ministry vets visited Portland Down, the farm where is was first found,
was in
the North East, where this person who’s a Dock Manage, manages in the
docks
says MAFF were importing all this boat loads of timber, in sleeper
sized, in
December, goes back to actually before that, November, December, they,
they did
a, inquiry, MAFF did about the supply of sleepers, in January they’re
importing
boat loads of sleeper size timber from Sweden, there’s, the farm where
it
started was being regularly, investigated by and visited by Ministry
vets, and
for most of the country where’s the most out of, out of way place,
Northumberland, I think what happened is, it was deliberately started
and it
all snowballed through the sheep moving around the countryside, and got
totally
out of, I, they went places they never dreamt it would go and got
totally out
of, they went places they never dreamt it would go, and there’s one
thing
that’s, stuck in my mind, that Gordon Brown said, not Gordon Brown, the
umm,
ministry of Agriculture, can’t think of his name now, said, we’ve
killed enough
stock now, those words are very prophetic to me, and the other
thing is, it
crippled the countryside, what was happening in March, are, the two,
three
weeks after it started, it would have been the biggest ever
anti-Government
demonstration with the Countryside March in London, just before the
election,
he was planning to hold an election, and I’m certain that he, he would
do
anything to stop that, and he did, I’m positive of that
6.84.
EM: The timbers, I don’t make, get the
connection with
timbers and burning, killing livestock
6.85.
CF: With Foot and Mouth you saw the pyres in
the
countryside, you have straw and you have sleepers, or timber
6.86.
EM: You need sleepers for the
6.87.
CF: To, to, to build the pyres
6.88.
EM: Burning pyres
6.89.
CF: to, to burn, to burn the cattle, why else
would they
buying that, bring in that sized timber
6.90.
EM: is there any other use for it
6.91.
CF: No, not for the Ministry of Agriculture,
and
6.92.
EM: Has it
6.93.
CF: the week, the middle of March, I was
told, I, well,
our neighbour, whose got a horse stables err Swedish diplomat told us,
told,
said there, that they know for a fact that it wasn’t put on us, it was
an
accident, it was deliberately put on us, the Swedish Government
apparently know
that, or knew that should we say now
6.94.
EM: And has this theory been
6.95.
CF: Why
6.96.
EM: Aired at all
6.97.
CF: Umm, why haven’t we had a, Foot and
Mouth, haven’t
we had a proper
6.98.
EM: Review
6.99.
CF: Review of it, I’m
6.100.
EM: But has
6.101.
CF: You call me cynical if you like but I, I,
I look at
the facts and I’m sorry, ha, ha
6.102.
EM: Do you think it had got national, I mean,
have you
seen that kind of theory in any national papers or in
6.103.
CF: No because
6.104.
EM: Farmers weekly even
6.105.
CF: No because, maybe, I don’t, how, how
widely known it
is that the MAFF were apparently importing timber, I only know what
this chap
told me, umm, I don’t know how widely it’s known that other Governments
knew it
was deliberately put on us, you know, I don’t know those kind of
things, but it
does, I do rather, I think they’d have got a very bad press if they’d a
few
full umm, can’t think of the word
6.106.
EM: Inquires
6.107.
CF: Inquiry into it, because they’re handling
of it was
diabolical, you only had to look at the documentary they did on the, I
think it
was Brigadier, that sorted it out in Cumberland, Cumbria, and his, the
attitude
of sorting it our, there was one thing that always sticks in my mind,
they said
we’re going to try and get it sort, he says no, you don’t try and do
it, you do
it, and it was like, different attitude, it was the only thing that got
it
done, he wasn’t, we’ll try and get this done, we’re try and get that,
no,
you’re going to get out there and you’re going to do it, and that was
why I
think what bought it under control in Cumbria
6.108.
EM: Gosh, well we may return to Foot
and, Nick Brown,
is that the name the person
6.109.
CF: Nick Brown was the one I was talking
about, there,
there was other thinks that happened with it as well, I’ve got somebody
who
farms up in Yorkshire, their neighbour had foot and Mouth, their
neighbour had
Foot and Mouth, they reported it the day that he was going up to York,
Tony
Blair went to Yorkshire, with saying the countryside is open, this that
and the
other, just it started, that started there, there was that late
outbreak in Yorkshire,
it was the first one there, he reported it on the morning, no the night
before
I think it was, there were, tankers were going all the way round, from
that
they went into his farm, picked the milk up and went on, nothing was
done,
nobody go, no form was issues, no notice, nothing, half an hour after
Tony
Blair left the area, the Ministry were in there, vets, and shot every
single
animal, they got everything ordered and organised and it was all shot
but it
just started, just so happened to start, half an hour after they left
the area
for their political rally, I know, my friend who farmed next door was
furious,
cause he lost his pedigree herd and that was, they’d been going for
generations, one of the oldest herds in the country, it’s you know, umm
6.110.
EM: Seems relentless the number of knocks,
really
6.111.
CF: Yeah
6.112.
EM: Farming’s had in the, well let me
6.113.
CF: Yeah, that’s the trouble
6.114.
EM: Well let me, let me go on, get
6.115.
CF: Sorry, I rant
6.116.
EM: No, no, no it’s all absolutely relevant,
umm, but
we’ll come back to a lot of it, but one thing I want to know, as, as a
farmer,
I know a lot of farmers, perhaps less so in Oxfordshire, do feel quite
isolated, and that, kind of, no one really understands them, like you
were
saying earlier, you feel like a leaper sometimes, how, how do, how much
do you
feel in contact with the outside world beyond farming
6.117.
CF: I think since Foot and Mouth probably not
as in, as
much as I was before, because we never left the farm for four months,
and never
saw anyone for four months, you know, we just, we put a barrier at the
top of
the drive, the only people we saw were when lorries came in and we
sprayed off
the wheels, umm, we never went shopping, never went out, I never saw
two of my
kids for three, for two months, cause Emily was doing her A-levels so
she went
and, stopped with some friends in Wantage so that she wasn’t affected
cause
were in it, we were in an infected area here, and my son was working on
a farm
during his middle year, he, they had, a case of foot and mouth next to
them,
they lost fifteen hundred sows was shoot on their farm, so I said no I
didn’t
want him coming back just in case, there was anything there and he
bought it
back, so I never saw either of them for two months
6.118.
EM: So how did you cope with shopping and
things, who,
who
6.119.
CF: Well, dear Mr Tesco, we used to do it on
the
internet, and he’d, he’d come down and meet, we’d meet him, by the
mats, he’d
drop, drop them off, we’d, we unload the shopping into our baskets and
bring
‘em in
6.120.
EM: You literally didn’t go out at all
6.121.
CF: Didn’t go out at all
6.122.
EM: The entire, for four months
6.123.
CF: Umm, trying to think when we first went,
I, I had to
go out and sign some forms for some milk quota, I meet that chap at
Sainsbury’s
in Swindon in the café, so that, he’s an agent, so that’s the only
place we
could think of were we could meet easily, otherwise I never went off
the farm
until, must have been July, yeah four months
6.124.
EM: And you couldn’t have visitors
6.125.
CF: We didn’t have any visitors, no
6.126.
EM: And that was your mum , your dad, you
6.127.
CF: And my son
6.128.
EM: So you really were a prisoner on your own
farm
6.129.
CF: Yup, they had some friends come to see
them so they
went, they walked up to mats and chatted to them, up on the road, half
way up
the drive
6.130.
EM: When you say the mat
6.131.
CF: We had disinfectant mats on the drive
that you had
to drive over, and, to, every time you went in and out
6.132.
EM: Could you not have just done that each
time you
wanted to go out, just disinfect yourself and
6.133.
CF: Yeah but then, how do you make sure you
don’t bring
it back in on your cloths
6.134.
EM: Do you think it was the right thing to do
6.135.
CF: Oh yes, we’ve, we got, a very highly
regarded
pedigree herd, I’d like to think, yeah, probably, one of the bet, the
better
ones in the area, well, we went to Newbury show this year and we won
five out
of the six prizes so it can’t be too bad, umm
6.136.
EM: That’s Holsteins
6.137.
CF: Umm, pedigree Holsteins, yes, we’ve
imported a lot
from Canada, Germany, they’ve come from Holland, Denmark, France,
embryos from
America, you know, we’ve got a, tremendously high, umm, quality
pedigree herd
6.138.
EM: Are they not that common
6.139.
CF: And there’s no way, you know, some of
them, there’s
one, one of them, there’s only one other member in the count, country,
you know
there’s very few, you know, there’s
6.140.
EM: Of Holstein, only one in the whole country
6.141.
CF: No, no, no, of that family
6.142.
EM: Oh right
6.143.
CF: umm, we’ve got some of the most famous
families in
the world are here, and err, both on this continent and from America,
and we just
wanted to, you know, we, we spent a fortune and our livelihood,
lifetime
building it up, and we just wanted to do everything we could to protect
it
6.144.
EM: And you did manage
6.145.
CF: Yes, thank God, ha, ha, I think that
would have
killed me, that would have decimated me if I’d lost that lot
6.146.
EM: And the embryo, when you say embryo’s
from America,
how does that work
6.147.
CF: We import frozen, you can import frozen
embryos,
umm, they come over to this country, you know, they’re, they’re, the
cows are
super ovulated they take embryos out, freeze them in liquid nitrogen,
transport
them across, put them in a surrogate mother’s here and get the claves
born here
6.148.
EM: Gosh, so
6.149.
CF: We do a lot of it here ourselves, we do a
lot of flushing,
I’m actually licensed to implant, and I was one of the first people in
the
country to be licensed and implant embryos on my own cows, I had to go
and do a
university course down at Bristol University, at the vet, the
veterinary centre
down there doing umm, to do an epidural, I had to do an exam and fifty
umm,
supervised epidurals and then do a practical examine and then I was
allowed to
do it on my, on my own and
6.150.
EM: It’s called flushing
6.151.
CF: Super ovulation and umm, multiple err,
they call it,
the, the umm, one herd up north is called the, the rigenous what was,
used to
be the MMB, Milk Marketing Board, is they had the MOETS, Multiple
Ovulation and
Embryo Transfer?? Is what they, stands for, so how do you find out
about the
embryos in the US, well, umm, web, websites, contacts
6.152.
EM: And there’s a particularly pedigree that
one
6.153.
CF: Yup, you just look for sales, you know,
some people
have bought pedigree, embryos in, and you buy the dams out of the
embryos that
have been, you don’t necessarily buy the embryos, I, I’ve never
actually
bought an embryo from America, I’ve bought some from Canada and that
was a
disaster, but that’s another story, and umm, what we tend to do is buy,
we’ve
tended to do is buy some old cows, the most valuable, highly rated cow
we ever
had here cost fifty thousand dollars when the guy bought it in America,
in
Canada, err, and we had two off of him and we looked after them and
flushed and
we had heifer calves for looking after them for him and they, they cost
eighty
thousand dollars for the two
6.154.
EM: How does the embryo arrive, in what, how
does that
work
6.155.
CF: Well, you super ovulate the cow, just
like you do
with humans when you’re doing it umm, in-vitro fertilisation for
humans, then,
I, I artificial inseminate the cows with the bulls semen for three
days, well,
three times, over two days, and then you literally flush the cows out
with a
special solution, you get someone err, a technician in or vet to come
in and,
they, they’re, it’s a specialised job, there are only about three or
four in
the country that do it, they come down, take the embryos out, look at
them,
find them, check, check what you take out underneath the microscope,
you either
put the, embryos into surrogate mothers or you, if you’ve got too many
you
freeze them and them in a flash, I’ve got a flask here on the farm, and
I’m
licensed to store em, embryos, I had one of the first on-farm licenses
in this
country too
6.156.
EM: And how long can it last frozen
6.157.
CF: Years, years, you know, it’s just like
human
embryos, umm, embryos and eggs, you can keep them frozen for years
6.158.
EM: So if there’s a power cut and that kind
of thing
6.159.
CF: Oh, doesn’t matter cause they’re stored
in liquid
nitrogen, which is, get’s topped every two or three months and you
literally,
there’s no power or anything like that, it’s a very simple storage
system
6.160.
EM: That’s quite extraordinary, and what does
your
father make that kind of thing, I mean he can’t have imagined seeing
that kind
of technology
6.161.
CF: No, ha, ha, he didn’t, he never could,
umm, he’s, yeah,
he, he agrees, it’s made us, got us where we are, that, that’s how we,
we I
managed to get hold of some old, wonderful pedigree cows and then I’ve
just,
developed on, I got a reputation and people started sending me cows,
for what
I’d started doing with one or two, and umm, it just snowballed from
there, and
I’ve had some, very famous cow, well there, the Canadian Holstein
Association
in their magazine for the centenary, the end of the century did umm,
they
featured eight cows that had got umm, featured through the main stays
of the
Holstein breeding America, Canada, and it turned out that we had
progeny off of
five of those, of the eight cows on the farm, which we didn’t realise,
ha, but when
we look back in the pedigrees we, we had five, five of the top eight,
descendents from five of the top eight cows in the world
6.162.
EM: So j, excuse my ignorance about it all,
but
6.163.
CF: Not at all
6.164.
EM: Cause the, when, to make a pedigree
embryo, does the
cow, does both the bulls sperm and cow have to be pedigree, or can it be
6.165.
CF: Oh yes, yeah
6.166.
EM: They both have to be
6.167.
CF: No they has to both be pedigree
6.168.
EM: So you imp, you get from someone else
6.169.
CF: We, we import the umm, most of the semen
we use on
flushing comes from either America or Canada, mostly those two, we,
you, have
used a bit from, Italy have got some very good bulls coming through
now, mostly
from American breeding I have to say, cause they, the Americans sent a
lot of,
help, because the, after the second world war, the cow population
virtually
wiped out in Italy and of course with all the connections with America,
a lot
of cows got sent over, and that to, to help restock and of course
that’s,
helped bring them up, in the, the world, rankings, but basically we,
bring in
the, the top pedigree bulls, semen from the top pedigree bulls in the
world,
are put into our cows and then flush the embryos out and either keep
the
resultant heifer calves for ourselves or sell some, if you had a good
flush you
can have an, I think the most we’ve had out of a, daughters out of a
flush is
about seven or eight, so you can sell two or three, make a bit of money
and,
keep, keep some for yourself
6.170.
EM: And how can you guarantee what that
you’re, what
you’re getting is quality
6.171.
CF: There’s no guarantee, what guarantee is
there about
any breeding
6.172.
EM: Because also in America they have
different
standards of hormone implants and that kind of thing, how, how would
you know
to prevent that
6.173.
CF: That wouldn’t affect embryos
6.174.
EM: What about preparing
6.175.
CF: Cause they’re literally taken out,
they’re, they’re
literally taken out at they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re taken out of
the cow,
cow, seven days after they’re fertilised
6.176.
EM: But is the mother had, had, hormones
6.177.
CF: But that, that, that, that wouldn’t,
cause they’re
taken out at such an early stage, the eggs have only split, I, I, the
cell, the
egg cell only split about four or five times, and that’s why, you know,
you
have no problem with that side of things, because, they aren’t old
enough to
get influenced by the, now if you’re brining cows over, yes they could,
they
could be, and that’s, that’s what you have to watch bringing live, live
ones
over but, that’s the other thing, it, the hormone implants in the, in
the beef
and that, we’re not allowed to use them in this county, but they’re
quite happy
to go and buy the beef from abroad that’s l, laced with it, cause they
don’t,
most of the people don’t know where it’s coming from, cause it’s bought
into
this country and then manufactured in this country so, cut up in this
country,
so it’s sold as British beef, manufactured, umm, done in this country
6.178.
EM: Yeah, I want to, bit later I’m going to
ask
6.179.
CF: Yeah
6.180.
EM: You more about labelling, so, so for,
for, err, all
of that resulted from the question, umm
6.181.
CF: Yeah
6.182.
EM: How, how do you keep in contact, you were
saying
well actually since foot and mouth you hardly had any
6.183.
CF: Yup
6.184.
EM: Contact
6.185.
CF: Yup
6.186.
EM: What about how do you keep in contact
with, farming
issues, in terms of the NFU or
6.187.
CF: Well
6.188.
EM: Farming Weekly, I mean, what, what, keeps
you in
touch
6.189.
CF: We, we, we, we, you have, documents sent
round, you
read the press, umm, you can learn a lot, much more, then, them, from
them,
than you ever can from the NFU, we all know what NFU stands for, the
ones N,
the first word’s No and the other one’s Use, and you can work, you can
work the
middle one out for yourself, ha, ha, umm
6.190.
EM: Are you a member
6.191.
CF: I am, because it’s no good complaining
about it if
you don’t stand up to try and, I’ve been to meetings to try and change
their
attitudes, I will stay as a member, so that if the, the opportunity
stands I
will try and, I think they’ve got to change, the people at the top, I
think are
too interested in getting a title for themselves as oppose to what’s
right for
farming
6.192.
EM: And do you
6.193.
CF: I really believe that, that’s all they’re
after, is
the title at the end of the day, lots of them, I’m not saying all of
them, but
a lot of them seem to be
6.194.
EM: Do you feel at all represented by it
6.195.
CF: So, so, not, I, I, I think they could do
a hell of a
lot more for farmers than, they do, do, you know they had nothing to
do, all
these demonstrations of the FFA, NFU didn’t want anything to do with it
6.196.
EM: Do you feel that they’re not radical
enough as an
organisation
6.197.
CF: I not say I say radical’s enough, I
don’t, I don’t
like being radical, I’m not a radical sort, I’m a very, stable sort of
guy
really, but you comes to a time when, you can’t make a living out of
what you
want to do, and somebody’s making billion pound profit, on your back,
you, say,
you’ve got to say, hey, hang on a minute, you take a million pound less
and we
can all have ten quid, yeah, that’s all, we’re not asking them to make
a loose,
all, all we want them to do is give us a fair chunk of the, the pie
6.198.
EM: But isn’t being, being part of Farmers
For Action,
FFA, isn’t that a radical
6.199.
CF: Well, I’ve, I have to say that I’ve
stepped back a
bit, because I think they are getting too radical
6.200.
EM: How did you get involved with the FFA
6.201.
CF: Somebody, a good friend of mine, she’s
been very
involved with it, right from the, the original days, before FFA where,
when
there these demonstrations with, for calves going abroad and stuff like
that,
and she said to me, you’ve ever been on a march and I said no, I said
why not,
I, I, she said, she said why not, I said, cause nobody’s ever let me
know when
anything’s going on, if I don’t know anything’s going on, I can’t do
it, she
said right, so she rang me up, and said, we got something going on
Saturday can
you let some people know in your area, and I thought well, what’s the
point of
complaining if you’re not prepared to stand up and be counted, and
those days
when, it was all peaceful, you just went and blockaded in, a
supermarket
delivery set, set in place, you know, you weren’t disrupting the
public, I’m, I
was a bit, I know it wasn’t just farmers but I think a lot of it was
the FFA
did try and get on the, I think they got on the back of, what the lorry
drivers
started doing with the fuels demos, umm, I wasn’t totally in favour of
that
6.202.
EM: What day did the FFA start then
6.203.
CF: When did it start, I haven’t the
foggiest, ha, ha
6.204.
EM: Had it, did it exist before, and this was
the milk
quota issue
6.205.
CF: It’s been going on for a while I think,
umm, by
people, started up by people who were just feed up with the NFU’s
inaction, and
they decided we’ve got-a-do, they decided we’ve got to do something,
umm, but,
you know, I,I’m,, I’m a law abiding, I’d never willingly do anything
that broke
the law, and if the police said open it, I’d move, you know, I’d,
happily more
on, sort of thing, I’d never, knowingly break, do anything to break the
law,
and, I just feel they’ve got a little bit too radical for my liking
personally
6.206.
EM: But the issue you got involved with them
was milk
quotas
6.207.
CF: Milk price
6.208.
EM: So the blockading was
6.209.
CF: That was done of, of the umm, basically
of the
supermarkets umm distribution centres, so that they couldn’t take them
, food
out to the shops
6.210.
EM: How do you feel about supermarkets in
general
6.211.
CF: I should think, well, on the milk side of
things
they seem to be coming round, they realise that unless they, because
they need
fresh milk, you can’t import fresh milk, you’ve got to produce it in
this
country so that they can have it on the shelves and if there isn’t
enough, then
their, they can’t produce it, to sell it, have it there to sell to
their
customers and they realist that what’s happening with the dairy
industry is,
they aren’t going to have enough in a couple of years time, we aren’t
going to have
enough in a couple of years time, we, we aren’t going to make, they
reckon
we’re not going to make quota again this year, and quota I think is,
we’re
about seventy, eighty per cent self-sufficient on, with the quota, I
might be
wrong, but that’s what it was, and umm, they realise that they aren’t,
aren’t
going, a lot of dairy, but, of the cheese and butter places last year
didn’t
have any fresh milk it was all imported, milk powder, stuff like that,
was
going into it, so they, they say at some stages last year, anyway,
they, you
know they’re got no choice, if, if they don’t support farmers and get
some back
to make farmers economic, they’re up the cheek without a paddle as
well, you
know, they’re can’t put it on the milk, like ours has to be collected
every
night, we were with Express, we’re with express here, it has to kept,
collected
every night so it can be, everyday or night, whichever it is, they run
their
lorries twenty four hours a day, so that they can have fresh milk on
the
supermarket shelves, you can’t do that if your importing it from France
or
Germany
6.212.
EM: Do you feel that they have too much
control
6.213.
CF: Yes, and nothing will be done of it, we
all saw what
happened in umm, during the foot and mouth, Tony Blair went out and
said,
supermarkets have got farmers under their thumb and who’s their biggest
supplier, backer, Lord Sainsbury, they all support, one supports one
party, one
supports the other, so who, whoever’s in power, they get a huge part of
their
income, comes, the party income comes from supermarkets, so they just
call,
whichever supermarket is, calls the tune, and I, I’m, I’m sorry but
that’s the
way it, it seems to me
6.214.
EM: Do you
6.215.
CF: How, how they can have somebody who runs,
who’s in
charge of a supermarket, advise him on farming, I don’t know, because
it’s
conflict of interest
6.216.
EM: So would you have preferred small shops
and local
businesses to survive and to sell your
6.217.
CF: That’s why I’m selling to who I’m selling
to
6.218.
EM: Who are you selling to
6.219.
CF: Well, we’re now selling to Southern Milk,
which is a
small co-op selling locally, down there
6.220.
EM: So you’ve managed to avoids, you’re out
of a
supermarket’s loop
6.221.
CF: Yes, at the moment, ha, ha
6.222.
EM: But you have been in their gridlock
6.223.
CF: We were, we were when we were with
Express Dairies
here, now down in Sussex, we going be, we’re with Southern Milk, which
is err,
a small co-op, that’s a farmers that sells their milk locally in
Portsmouth and
Southhampton
6.224.
EM: And sis you find, feel yourself
pressurised by
supermarkets err, or
6.225.
CF: Oh yes, a whole
6.226.
EM: Could tell me a bit about it, I
mean many people
feel that they can’t, I remember, I remember several tele, television
programmes with people, you know blackened out, anonymous, you know,
farmers
not wanting to speak openly about
6.227.
CF: I’ve never had any problems, I’ve had,
I’ve been
interviewed on various television places about it, umm, there are
certain
things that happened, and I wasn’t involved with and I’ll stand up and
say, yes
I was there, I was aware of it, but I would have, I had nothing to do
with it,
and nor would I have anything to do with it, I’ve, as I said I, I’ve
only ever
done anything, as far as I’m aware, I’ve never done anything that was
illegal,
umm, I never would do anything that was illegal, umm, I think, umm, my
soul
crime is I broke the speed limit when I was seventeen and that’s thirty
one
years ago and that was like, that’s the one and only thing that I’ve
ever done
wrong, that I’m aware of, ha, and umm, I, I’m, quite happily stand up
and say
what I believe in, what I thinks wrong, and be recognised, I, I’ve got
nothing
to be ashamed of, I’ve done nothing to be ashamed of, if they’re got to
be
blackened out, I, I, they must be doing something to be ashamed of,
illegal, or
something, and I’ve got no, no problem with, I don’t agree with that,
if there
in a side of farming, that’s intensive, and there are a lot of people
out there
who have been attacking intensive set-up’s and stuff, I can well
imagine them
not wanting to stay anonymous because, they don’t want anybody come and
knock
on their, on their door in the middle of the night with a firebomb or
something, I can quite understand that, but err
6.228.
EM: Do you
6.229.
CF: I look, I love my cows, I look after my
cows well,
we’ll I like to think I do anyway, umm
6.230.
EM: Do you feel there was a moment when it
could have
gone the other way, where, where local businesses could have thrived
and,
supermarkets wouldn’t have held farmers in a gridlock
6.231.
CF: Yes, but, umm, that was a long time ago,
you know,
before this crisis ever started, that was build thirty years ago
6.232.
EM: Do you think that enough fuss has been
made of the
growth of supermarkets and out of town
6.233.
CF: I think it’s terrible for the, umm, if
you actually,
I saw some programmes on television, they were doing, shops in local,
going
into, various shops, picking it up, and going to the supermarket and
what they
actually bought, was about thirty per cent more expensive at the
supermarket,
it’s convenience, it’s not necessarily cheaper, but it’s convenience,
and if
people are happy, their happy to get in the car and drive out, to out
of town
stores, you’re causing more pollution, by driving everywhere, driving
out into
the town, these big stores, they probably get more money out the
consumers,
because they walk round these big stalls with all the stuff there, and
they
sya, oh, that looks nice, we’re open that, oh, we’ll have a bit of
that, and I
think a lot of people probably spend more, than they really wanted to,
maybe
more than they can afford to, you know, the kids come in, and they want
this
and that, it’s very not to, with your kids, I’m a father I know, I’m no
different to anybody else
6.234.
EM: It comes as a surprise to me, I, you
know, I am an
urban person so I, you know I haven’t, I’m not as in touch as you are
with,
with countryside issues but, for instance the Countryside march, the
Lib, the
Liberty March this year
6.235.
CF: Yeah
6.236.
EM: It, I often wonder why, many of those
same people
didn’t take to the streets when supermarkets, when there was a
proliferation of
supermarkets being built out of town, umm, out of towns and small shops
were
6.237.
CF: Nobody, was, the Liberty and Livelihood,
what’s
happened now, probably the, it started with hunting, probably, yup,
with the,
them, want to ban, they’re trying to control everything that happens in
the
countryside, urbanise it, it’s not urban, it’s countryside, it’s not an
extension of the town, there’s two very different places, the
foxes in the
country are very different, are a different breed, a different type of
animal
to what’s in a town, you know, I’ve seen both, I live in the
countryside, I
love seeing foxes around, but I also support hunting, I don’t actively
go
hunting, but I support it, I’ve, we’ve seen hunting on the farm, the,
they’ve
caught foxes on the farm, I’ve seen the foxes they’ve caught, they were
either
weedy, slightly, you know, not right, the good, big, healthy foxes,
pugh,
they’ve gone, you don’t see them for dust, so what you do, do is, your
tending
to kill the weedy stock, they killed one on the farm here that had been
hit by
a car and had gangrene, well they saved that fox from a, horrific
death, and
let’s face it, anybody who knows anything about a gangrene would agree,
for any
animal it’s the worse kind of death, something like that, much worse
than a
quick bite in the neck, and this thing about ripping foxes to death,
pieces,
alive, I’ve seen foxes killed, umm, I’m sorry, no, doesn’t happen, I’m
not
saying it never happens, but, I’ve never heard know, heard of one yet
and I’m,
my family has been very involved with hunting for years
6.238.
EM: Do you feel it’s a vi, I don’t want to
get too into
the hunting debate, but now you mention, it was more asking why
6.239.
CF: Yeah, but I’ve been going, sorry
6.240.
EM: Well, well, well
6.241.
CF: Your, but, if, if
6.242.
EM: I will ask you this
6.243.
CF: You’re, you’re destroying, you’re
destroying the
countryside, the way we are in the countryside, you’re destroy,
destroying the
rural, rural, this village, we’ve had, one, two, three, four, five,
family
farms, one’s turned into a riding stables and the other four are all
selling up
this year, it’s destroying, it’s changing the whole of the rural,
because of
the situation in farming, it’s changing the whole of the rural, there’s
just,
everything coming together, it and, people in the countryside are
saying hang
on, we’ve had enough of you changing, destroying the countryside as we
know it,
they
6.244.
EM: But
6.245.
CF: But when, when you were saying about the
supermarkets, nobody dreamt then, that they would have such an effect
on the
rural economy, not because of the shops or anything like that, but with
the
farming, and everything else to do with it
6.246.
EM: But the interesting thing to me, as an
observer of,
of this sort of, this sort of, is that, a lot of green organisations,
like say
Friends of the Earth, and organisations like that, did realise, and
they would
have taken to the streets, not, not just when supermarkets were being,
built
but also, roads being built through the kind of classic now, you know
like
Newbury and Twyford Down and Sailsbury Hill and all then, and as, as an
observer of these things, I thing well why actually do the same people
who did,
who turned out for Liberty and Livelihood March not turn out when
supermarkets
were being out, and not turn out at these road protests, which to me,
that is
all saving the countryside
6.247.
CF: I’m afraid that all comes down to the,
the name that
you mentioned, Greenpeace
6.248.
EM: Friends of the Earth
6.249.
CF: Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace,
they’ve,
they’ve got a lot of people, consider them, fruit cakes, yeah that,
that’s the
way people view them, I’m not saying I do but, that’s the way they are
viewed
by a lot of people, and, I’m, I think, you know I think it’s great that
they’re, they take up some of the causes they do, umm, I don’t agree
with the
things they do again, because I, there again, a lot of the things they
do are
against the law, they’re breaking the law, and I, I don’t agree with
that, I
think, you got a lot of the things on these road and that, you did get
a, a
very extreme person going there, whereas the Liberty and Livelihood
was, an
organised, very ordinary people, just going and marching, not camping
on a
place for days on end, it’s a very different type of thing, probably if
you’d
had a better organisation organising it, with regard to the
supermarkets, you
might have got the marches, but it comes down to who’s organising it
6.250.
EM: So you thing that is the reason, it’s
not, that the
issue doesn’t deserve merit
6.251.
CF: No, there was nothing
6.252.
EM: It’s just as much an issue for the
countryside
6.253.
CF: It’s the people who, it’s the people who
are, umm,
making it
6.254.
EM: So how did the Liberty and Livelihoods,
kind of
people, try to stop certain roads being built, and try to stop certain
supermarkets being built, you’d have been behind them, it was more the
scene
wasn’t
6.255.
CF: The way it was done, you know, umm
6.256.
EM: But you agree that the issues are as
valid, do you,
you feel that was valid
6.257.
CF: I think so, yeah, I, I, I’m, I’m, I don’t
like
seeing parts of the countryside, especially the Newbury Bypass I think,
it
could have been done better, the, the, the way, where it was put in,
you know,
umm, where it went through, we used to live just the other side of
Newbury,
before we moved down it for a few years before we moved down here so,
it is,
you know, I, I agree, I don’t think they could, choose the best route,
but,
there comes to a limit, you, you can stand up, and you can have a
meeting and a
demonstration, but I’m afraid, I won’t go and camp out, and hang
myself, barricade
myself in a tree, no, I don’t do that sort of thing
6.258.
EM: But
6.259.
CF: And that’s what most of the people on
this Liberty
and Livelihood won’t, they feel strongly enough about it, and they’ll
go out
have, have their heard, their voice heard, but there, a lot of people
were put
off by these road demonstrations by the extremists who got involved,
I’m not
saying they’re all, Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace and people like
that,
but there were a lot of, I can’t, I forget that lad who used to
6.260.
EM: Swampy
6.261.
CF: Swampy, you know, and people think, used
to think,
what a fruit cake, ha, you know, I, I, I think he, he believes,
fervently
believes in it and he’d do whatever he wanted to, to support it, to
stop it,
fine, but the majority of people won’t go that way, it’s, it’s only a
few
who’ll do that sort of thing, you heard about what they were doing, you
think,
no I don’t want to get involved with that, and, and that’s the
difference
6.262.
EM: So just, I, I don’t want to go too much
into this
6.263.
CF: No
6.264.
EM: I’ve got several other things I want to
ask you, but
so, so say there was a, a motorway being built at the bottom of your
farm,
let’s just say
6.265.
CF: Well, the M4 nearly did go, one of the
routes was
through the bottom of the farm, ha
6.266.
EM: Would you have protested against that, or
would you
have been quite, reticent
6.267.
CF: Something like the motorway, they’ve got
to go
somewhere, and you got to take the best is, whichever the best route to
go,
err, I don’t think they took the best route for Newbury, I think that
it could,
things could have been done differently, a different route, that
wouldn’t have
taken it through such an area, you know that, common is, something
special and
that’s the sort of thing, we can all, we can coupe with a little bit of
our,
you know, it’s, it’s a road, it doesn’t take up thousands of acres,
hundreds of
acres our of your farm, you might loose, ten or twenty acres, maybe,
but it’s
not going to take thousand of acres, out of farm, you can live with
that, but
I, you know, if it was, the best route, then I wouldn’t have gone out
demonstrating against it, no
6.268.
EM: Would you not
6.269.
CF: Even though it was coming though you, it
had, that
M4 had to go somewhere
6.270.
EM: Okay, okay, let, let’s move on, my last
sort of
question about contact is, given that you sometimes work a fifteen hour
day, I,
I just find it unbelievable how you fit in, reading up about latest
technology
6.271.
CF: Well you usually read that while having
your lunch
or your breakfast, ha, or supper
6.272.
EM: And, and, doing all your paper work, you
know, the,
the
6.273.
CF: Well, we did umm, I used to do all the,
main paperwork,
but all the accounts paperwork was done by, we had a secretary come in
to do it
here, which I haven’t got down there so I’ve got to it all myself now,
which
will be fun, ha
6.274.
EM: And also going back to the sort of public
image of,
of farming, when you said, you know, people, you feel like a leaper,
what do
you feel could be done, to make people understand farmers better
6.275.
CF: We are portrayed, particularly by the
Government, as
being um, subsidies junkies, we’re not, I don’t know of a farmer in the
country
who would happily live the way they are with subsidies and set-a-side
being
paid for se-a-side in the arable subsidies and that, they’d much rather
being
growing crops and being paid a, a realistic money price for the crops,
we’d all
rather do that, but, we’ve got costs, either, we get subsidised to help
cover
the costs, by the EEC or whoever, or the price of food has to go up,
you can’t,
all, all the American farmers and that are heavily subsidised, we all
know
that, you know that’s a, everybody knows that, so, how, we’re so, we
got a,
work, work on a world market, just take my cows, I feed them on maize,
in this
country, we get thirty percent or less of the IACS payment on maize,
all the
other dairy farmers in the EEC are getting a hundred percent of the, so
we’re
getting, we’re getting seventy percent less on our payments, every
other farmer
in the EEC is getting, but that’s down to this Government, the British
Government decided, have decided that, not the EEC, that’s down to the
British
Government, now, am I working on a, on a equal market, just with the
EEC, let
alone the rest of the world, no, you know, we’re, we’ve got animal
welfare in
this country we have to abide by, no other body, nobody else has got
anything
like we’ve got anything, in the world, are we working on the same
playing
field, no, we’re not, all we want to do, is if they want us to have
these
special umm, welfare standards and that, then we have to be subsidised
for the
amount of money it costs us, you know, anybody can chuck good knows how
many
cattle in a shed and tether pigs up and, willy-nilly, you know, but
when you
start putting up bigger sheds so that they have more room, freedom and
stuff
like that, it costs money, it costs you more to produce the food, so,
you have
to, if you the, if you want the food, either you have to subsidise us,
or let
us get a realistic price of what it’s costing, now the Government
doesn’t want
the food price to go up, because that affects inflation, so what other
choice
have they got, they have to give us, subsidies to, keep the food coming
on the
table
6.276.
EM: Is that, your
6.277.
CF: At the price they want it
6.278.
EM: What you’ve answered is very interesting
but it’s
about survival, the question was about the image, it’s, so
6.279.
CF: Yes, but, there, I said the image is that
where,
where umm
6.280.
EM: The image is subsidy junkies
6.281.
CF: We’re subsidy junkies, just, just
grabbing off the
state, we don’t want to be like that, I don’t want to be like that, you
know, I
want to be farming my land, producing a quality product that people are
going,
paying me a realistic price for, that’s what I’d love to do
6.282.
EM: And how much local, err like in the
immediate
vicinity where, where you live, how much understanding is there, do you
think
of, of your
6.283.
CF: Of farming, very little, even people in
the village
I think who have move, the people who have been heres quite a while
understand
what the situation involve, but people who, there’s a lot of people who
have
moved out into the countryside recently, and they have no perception of
the
reality of, the economics of farming, and the way we look after the
cows and
animals and that, they see a bit on television, they think all farms
are like
that
6.284.
EM: Are they curious, do they ask you
6.285.
CF: Yes and that’s why, that’s one of the
things, big
things I do when I go showing, we do showing and I’ll talk to anybody
about the
cows, what we do, how we look after them, they can stroke any of my
cows, I’ve
got no problems with that, and I think it’s very important that, it’s
one of
the important ways of going and talking to the public and letting them
what
it’s all about
6.286.
EM: I mean
6.287.
CF: Those cows that we take to the show are
no
different, treated no different to anything else on the farms, it’s not
just my
cows out, there’s hundreds of cows at these shows, all the cows at
those shows,
all treated the same, they not, they not put in a little palace just
the ones
that we take
6.288.
EM: But although, although you say that, some
public
perception might be subside junkie, I don’t think anyone doesn’t a
farmer, is a
hard worker, do you think that
6.289.
CF: Well, I think a lot of people think we
just umm,
town people think we just farmers, driving round in Discoverys and go
shooting
or fishing all day, or hunting, that’s not reality, ha, ha, but that is
a
perception that a lot of people have of us in towns, is that how, what
farmers
do, you know, they swan around in a big Range Rover, or, or Discovery
paying
people a, a pittance to do their work for them at home while they swan
around,
that, it might have done a hundred years ago but it doesn’t work these
days,
those sort of farmers are the ones that are going out of business cause
they
can’t afford to pay the people to produce, out of, out of their
proceeds,
you’ve got to get your hands dirty and get down there
6.290.
EM: Do you listen to the Archers
6.291.
CF: No, ha
6.292.
EM: Have you ever
6.293.
CF: Err yes, but, probably not in the last
thirty years,
ha, ha
6.294.
EM: Does your father listen to it
6.295.
CF: No, nobody here does
6.296.
EM: Did they, do you, what’s it’s reputation
amongst
farmers you know, is it that it’s
6.297.
CF: Well it’s not really any, anything, I, I
don’t,
from, from what I’ve heard and seen and read, it’s really not, it’s
rather like
Emmerdale Farm of the tele, start off with, that was about Emmerdale
Farm, now
you don’t hear about anything about farming, it’s just about the
village, and
that’s what’s happening throughout, the village is, the farms are
disappearing
out of the villages, you’re getting these big estates, the houses are
being
sold off, the buildings are being knocked down and houses built where
the
buildings are and, big, big farms from away are taking over the land
and, I
think that just about sums up the television programmes as well, they,
they
actually depict, depicts the way farming has gone on, it’s, it’s
destroyed,
finished it, ha, ha
6.298.
EM: Okay, let’s move on to umm, yeah, okay,
let’s move
onto the growing and rearing
6.299.
CF: Yup
6.300.
EM: How do you decide what to grow, or what
to rear I
mean
6.301.
CF: What to rear, we rear is simple, we rear
every, we
put every animal on the farm to a Holstein bull when we rear every
heifer calf,
that’s simple, we rear the odd bull calf if we think the pedigrees good
enough
to sell it as a breeding bull, umm, grow, so that’s fairly simple, you
know,
you just decide what you keep and what you sell on, at a later date,
you know,
you sell to other dairy farmers, to produce milk or whatever, or start
a family
and umm, you, you know, you has the, you want to keep your keep, you
know, nun,
no, none of, we do no beef, nothing goes for beef or anything, so we
have no
decisions on that score, umm, growing, it’s always been a case of here,
what we
need, we grow what we need to feed the cows, but now we’ve taken this
bigger
unit with a lot of arable on, we’ve got to look much more, at what,
what will
cover the costs
6.302.
EM: So how will you find
6.303.
CF: And I use it, I use that, very carefully,
because,
you know, you don’t look at what you can make a profit on, you’re
looking what
will cover the costs
6.304.
EM: No even, it’s that modest, your
expectation
6.305.
CF: Yeah, nobody’s, nobody’s expecting to
make a profit
this year on arable farming, it’s just a case of what you can cover
your costs
with
6.306.
EM So on this farm
you were
growing just
6.307.
CF: Grass and maize for the cows
6.308.
EM: It was all, it was all for the cows,
nothing was
going to human consumption that you were
6.309.
CF: No, apart from the milk
6.310.
EM: Yeah, umm, but none of your arable was
being sold,
it was all self sufficient as it were
6.311.
CF: No, it was all, it, it was just, just for
the farm,
yup
6.312.
EM: And then how are you go’na, this new
venture now,
learn more about, where will you kind of, look to learn and get advice
for new
arable ventures
6.313.
CF: Umm, various places really, be, we have a
agent,
umm, advising us from Orban Farming Limited, which is, used to be
Anderson, one
of the biggest ones in the country, we have an agronomist who have,
advises us
on what sprays to use when, umm
6.314.
EM: Do you have to pay for all of this advice
6.315.
CF: Of course, yes, what’s free
6.316.
EM: Quite, quite a lot
6.317.
CF: I haven’t had the bill yet, ha, ha, all
depends how
much you use him I suppose, it, vary, greatly, if, if they come down
once a
week then it costs once more, a lot more if they come down twice a
year, same
as anything, the more you use it, err, it’s like a car, the more you
use a car,
the more, the more it cost you, so it’s, no different to anything else
really,
umm, we’ve got a very good tractor driver who’s been working the farm
for
twenty six years, he, he advises us, you know, no, that won’t grow in
that
field, you can grow this there, and things like that, and, but the
biggest one
of all, is, what will cover the costs, that is what cov, covers it, you
sit
down at the table and say, barley, no, this that, no
6.318.
EM: And do you get any week, do you get
Farmers Weekly
or any other
6.319.
CF: Oh yes, we have Farmers Weekly
6.320.
EM: And you really would read that, each week
would you
6.321.
CF: I look at it, ha, ha
6.322.
EM: Look at it, right
6.323.
CF: You glance through and you think, you,
you, you see
what, you know, like, we’ve got arable and dairy so you don’t bother to
read
anything about beef or pigs or sheep, you know, you read what pertinent
to your
business
6.324.
EM: How much, I mean just, just to sort of
set the
theme, when you move to Sussex, how much advice will you be willing to
ask of
local farmers is it, is there a kind of pride in, in the farming world
6.325.
CF: Not with me
6.326.
EM: Does, does
6.327.
CF: Not with me, I can’t answer for anybody
else, but
I’m, I’m never too ashamed to ask anybody’s advice, you know, the day,
I think
I know it all and stop asking is the day I pack up farming cause I’ve
had it,
it’s as simple as that, ha, ha
6.328.
EM: Has you come across people who don’t want
to err, is
it a sort of trait in farming that
6.329.
CF: I think there are a lot of older ones, I
think the
more modern farmer, the, my generation and my son’s generation, are
much
happier, using advises and that, whereas certain my fathers generation
is, you
know, if you ask anyone, you weren’t, you weren’t capable of doing it,
I’m not
saying all of them are like that, but it was much more prevalent in
that
generation, I think you know, it’s a changing with the times, you know,
when
you can go out there, and just plod along and make a living, you didn’t
worry,
but now, you’ve got to do everything you can, just to try and cover
you’re,
keep you’re costs down to a minimum, you know, maybe not even covering,
it’s
just, all, with a lot of arable farmers are looking at it the way, you
can make
as least loss as possible, not a profit or cove the costs it’s just how
you can
keep your losses down
6.330.
EM: And with your maize and your grass, where
would you
get those seeds from
6.331.
CF: Umm, agricultural merchants, you just
ring up and
order them, you see what you want, see what there is about, see what
might grow,
you know, they, they do these trials and that and you just read and,
like that,
you know you, if there’s anything on maize, if you’re looking at maize
then you
look at, any research results on maize and see what happens, see what
takes
and, see what’s growing well, where, and then you decide what you want
6.332.
EM: And would you say seed ever
6.333.
CF: No
6.334.
EM: And how concerned would you be about
whether the
seeds organic or not
6.335.
CF: Well, we’re not organic, umm, there are
certain things
to do with organic that I don’t like, umm, they tend to bend the rules,
to suit
themselves, when it suits them, umm, I don’t like that
6.336.
EM: What kind of bending of the rules
6.337.
CF: Well, if you’re short of grub for your
cows, you can
buy a field of grass from your neighbour who’s not organic and that can
go,
that can go in your clam as, and it’s registered as organic conversion,
I’m
sorry that’s not right, if you’re organic, you’re organic, if you can’t
grow
the food, you cut your cows down, no, and that, that’s, if I do
something, I do
it properly, and that’s why I won’t go into it, I didn’t go into it,
umm, I’ve
got a friend, school, I was at school with, I was talking to him, must
be a
couple of years ago now, and he asked me if I was gone, going organic,
and I
said no I don’t agree with it and said, and he asked me why, and I said
well
take milk for instance, our milk has to be under a hundred and fifty
cell
count, to get into the top band
6.338.
EM: A hundred and fifty
6.339.
CF: Cell count, which is the amount of white
cell in the
milk, they can, they’s, and test it, umm, organic, only has to be under
four
hundred, and he asked me, what does that mean, I said, basically, put
in a
nutshell, that’s shelf life, how long it will keep, he says, well funny
you
should say that, that’s one thing we’ve noticed since we’ve been buying
organic
milk, it doesn’t last anywhere as long, I said, there you go, and
that’s why I
don’t like, I don’t agree with it, I
6.340.
EM: Can you explain the cell count
6.341.
CF: Cell count is, that they count, that
they, they,
they’ve got some kind of test, they count the amount of umm, white
cells, in,
in the milk, I don’t know how they do it, they can do it, you know, I’m
afraid
I’m not up on the technical side of it
6.342.
EM: And
6.343.
CF: We get one back for, we get it tested
four times a
week, a month, a sample is taken every day, form the
6.344.
EM: You have to take the sample do you
6.345.
CF: No the bulk tanker takes it and they take
it away
and they keep it every day, so if there’s any problem with a load of
milk, they
can see, find out which farm it’s come from, err, four time, four or
five times
a month, it’s sent away for analysis, and we get butter fat content,
protein,
cell count and bacter-scan Which is the number of bacteria in it, which
has to
be under forty I think it is, to be in the top band for that, we’re in
the top
band for all of it, but as it is, but, I feel if you only have to be
under four
hundred, you don’t bother to be such a good family, don’t, you don’t
worry if
it’s three hundred and fifty because you’re still getting paid your
full wack,
why go to the expense of doing it, I’d rather, I prefer to go down the
line, I
use, been a very heavy user of homeopathy and drug free medicines,
because I
feel, to produce milk from drug free cows is far more beneficial to the
human,
than, doing it from organic grass, and that’s the way I’ve gone down,
the route
I’ve gone down, umm
6.346.
EM: So would you like a label that
6.347.
CF: No, I just feel that I, I, it’s for my, I
think the
cows are healthier for it, you know, we lot of acupuncture and stuff
like that
and I think it’s much better to with, I don’t know how much people know
about
homeopathy but, basically it stimulates the body to heal itself from
inside,
it’s, it’s very simplified that is, but that’s it in a nutshell, and I
feel
it’s much better to do, get a cow to do that, than it is to try and
treat it
with drugs
6.348.
EM: What would your fathers generation think
about that
6.349.
CF: Father’s all in favour of it, he, he, he
6.350.
EM: That’s not seen as crackpot
6.351.
CF: It was, originally
6.352.
EM: Would you have
6.353.
CF: He thought I was mad when I started on,
on with it,
but he realises, you know, we used it in, what happened was, I was
cured of
meningitis, hepatitis and there was something else I was cured of, I
can’t
remember what it was now, with hom, homeopathy, and I thought, mine
personally,
and I thought, if it works on me, why won’t, why won’t it work on the
cows, and
all this, that it, it works with pets because of the bond, I’m sorry,
my cows
don’t know I’m putting five mil of a mixture in their water tank, ha,
ha, I
love my cows, but it isn’t that close a bond, and it works, and I think
it’s
much better, to do that and have it going in through, with like the
water or something,
than it is sticking needles in their backside and shooting antibiotics,
the
body full of antibiotics, I know I feel lousy when I’m on antibiotics,
why the
cow feel any better
6.354.
EM: So, but you still wouldn’t go for a brand
that was
kind of drugs free rather than pesticide free brand in some way
6.355.
CF: No, no, no, no, I’m, cause there’s
labelling like
that, you, you don’t get any that umm
6.356.
EM: What was the quota, was that, yours was a
hundred
and fifty cells
6.357.
CF: As a cell count, umm, on our milk buyer,
they vary
from milk buyer to milk buyer, but it’s, you have to, umm, express
dairy’s,
was, a hundred, I think I’m right in saying, is a hundred and eighty,
Southern
Milk’s a hundred and fifty,
6.358.
EM: Your have to be
6.359.
CF: You have to be under, lower than that
6.360.
EM: And the, cell ohh, and the organic milk
you have to
be
6.361.
EM: Under four hundred
6.362.
CF: Under four hundred
6.363.
EM: So, right
6.364.
CF: So it’s three times as dirty if you like
6.365.
[mobile phone rings]
6.366.
EM: Oh sorry about that, that’s mind, again
6.367.
EM: Okay we’ve had an interruption there, but
I’m gonna,
I’m gonna pick up in one of my questions is do you feel there is a
crisis of
farming in the UK, which of course we’ve move than covered, umm, but
just out
of interest, how much do you feel there is a crisis in the rest of the
world to
do with, in connection with farming
6.368.
CF: I think there is, there is a lot, across
a lot of
the world because everybody wants cheap food, it’s just that a lot of
the
Governments, most of the Governments, are, backing their farmers,
because the
majority of Governments, take France and America, has got vast parts of
rural
population, that unless they keep them on side, they aren’t going to
get back
in next time, there is, this Government’s in, and hasn’t got a single
rural MP,
that’s the difference, France, if they don’t look after the farmers,
they don’t
get back into power, cause the farmers have a tremendous amount of the,
percentage of the vote, we’re so into, the, the rural vote in this
country is
very insignificant as far as getting the MPs into their seats, so why
should
the Government care about us, all the Government care, seems to care
about is
getting back into power, and if we can’t help them get back into power
they
won’t care about us, that’s the way I view it, I’m not saying that’s
the way it
is, but that’s sure as hell the way it seems
6.369.
EM: And what do you, I mean we’ve, we’ve
discussed it in
various ways, but what do you think is the root cause of the crisis,
the cheap
food
6.370.
CF: Cheap food
6.371.
EM: Or the MPs being out of touch
6.372.
CF: The crisis is deeper in this country
because, the
Government doesn’t want to back farmers, but in all the other
countries, the
Governments are backing the farmers, you know
6.373.
EM: And the crisis is somewhat
6.374.
CF: Isn’t quite as bad as it is in this
country, I don’t
think, but I must admit, you know, without going and speaking to
everybody and
seeing there accounts, how can you tell, you know, you can, you can
only see
what you, what you read and what you hear, err, I think it probably is
deeper
in this country than anywhere else, lot of it because of our overheads,
because
of the welfare issues we have on the livestock side of things, but err,
also
because they just want to get away from backing farmers, as far as I
can see
the UK Government is the only one that wants to scrap quotas in the
Agricultural Policy. I haven’t, I haven’t heard much coming from any
other countries
in the EEC
6.375.
EM: And do you think exporting is the answer
6.376.
CF: You can only export, if you can afford
to, umm, if
you’re producing enough to export, and I don’t think we’re, we’re going
be, you
know, I was, I was at a meeting last week, and they, the arable group,
the corn
group that it was, they have never exported anything through their on,
on-dock
storage last year, there just was no, no, I think a lot of that comes
down to
the way British produce is perceived around the world, it comes down
to, the
way it’s marketed around the world, unfortunately it’s marketed by big
companies, and I would say, that is probably the biggest problem we
have,
exporting, the Gov, Government doesn’t worry about backing us for
exporting,
they don’t, they certainly don’t want live exporting of animals, but,
we’ve
probably as good genetic base, what I know about, the Holsteins as
there is,
probably, anywhere, anywhere else in the world, we’re getting some
wonderful
bulls coming through, going out in the world, we should be looking at
exporting
them, some of the produce and un, until they push to get the export’s
bans and
that lifted, going back to BSE days, there’s far more BSE going on in
the
Continent than there is in this country now, why aren’t they exporting
to our
export, out, because they don’t give a dam about farming, they’re more
worried
about the person in a town doesn’t want umm, animals exported
6.377.
EM: And would you ever see a, see a world in
Britain
let’s say, where there isn’t the sort of great food swap of, exports
going
over, and then imports going over and it being almost
6.378.
CF: You can never do that, because we can’t
grow things
in this country that, the consumer wants, we can’t grow, some of the
exotic
fruits, bananas, and
6.379.
EM: Rice
6.380.
CF: That, and rice and that, economically in
this
country, it could be grown but you’d have to pump aa the paddy fields
and
things like that
6.381.
EM: But on the, on the food stuffs, that we
can grow,
and we do import
6.382.
CF: Umm
6.383.
EM: Would you like to ever see a day when we
just go
utterly local and
6.384.
CF: No, I, I don’t think that will ever
happen because
it’s a global market now a days, you know, it’s that same everywhere
across, I
don’t see that’ll ever happen again, I think, you, it will happen to a
certain
extent because we’re you’ve got people doing farm shops and that, a
number, a
certain percentage of people will go there because they want to, get
there, see
where it’s been grown and know it’s been grown locally and that, but
the
majority of people don’t give a monkey’s, all they’re worried about is
how much
they, the cheapest they can get it and that’s where the global side
comes in
6.385.
EM: And what do you think about joining the
Euro
6.386.
CF: I’m against it, but not, not on economic
terms or
anything, just on principle, ha, ha
6.387.
EM: Do you think it will be good for farming
6.388.
CF: Well, according to what everybody says it
should be,
because they’re all blaming the Euro rate for why are milk prices are
down,
what I’d like to err, I’d love to see is what happens if we join the
Euro, is
our milk price going to go up, are the prices going to go up, that’s,
that,
that’s the only way you’ll be able to tell as far as, the umm, I don’t
know
whether it’ll be better or not, I’m, for a personal reason, I don’t
thing we
need it, I, it’s worked fine, perfectly well for hundreds of years, why
is it
sudden we have to join the united states of Europe
6.389.
EM: And what do you feel
6.390.
CF: mostly it’s pushed by the Germans, and we
all know
the Germans have been trying to take over Europe for years, ha, ha
6.391.
EM: What do you think about the
recommendation of the
food and farming commission to switch from subsidising production to
environmental
subsidies
6.392.
CF: Totally wrong, I don’t think you can just
swap it,
you can put, you can encourage it, but there’s vast areas of the
country that
wouldn’t be able to get environmental grants, and, I don’t, I, I cert,
it comes
back to the stage, is, why are you giving subsidies to keep the food
price
down, what’s, the environment grants how that’s gonna err, help the
farmer
growing his food, not at all, all it’s doing is giving the green,
green image
to the Government, it’s nothing to do, I don’t think it’s anything to
do with,
that it’s, it’s going to be better for the environment this that and
the other,
it’s just, you know, it will be better for the farmers who are doing
it, I
think there should be a capping for how much you could have, if a farm,
if
Charlie can own or farm fourteen thousand acres, or twenty thousand
acres, he
doesn’t need that much payment on all of it, but the guy, the little
family
farm, who’s trying to make a living and keep the farm going, he should
have a
little bit more, to try and keep the farms going instead of all going
into
these, cause I, I, I know, he’s, he’s not even British, he’s come over
locally
here, he’s come over from abroad, he’s bought I think it’s about ten,
twelve thousand
acres, and at one stage he was getting about three quarters of a
million pound
a year IACS cheque, that’s not right
6.393.
EM: What does IACS stand for
6.394.
CF: Umm, Integrated Ag, Agricultural, you
know the, umm
6.395.
EM: Farm management, no
6.396.
CF: No, the, Integrated Agricultural
Commission Subsidy
thing
6.397.
EM: Oh yeah, IACS
6.398.
CF: Yeah, IACS, umm, he was getting a cheque
for three
quarters of a million, one guy doesn’t need that to survive, if he can
afford
to buy all these, they reckon that these IACS cheques, every two years
he
bought a new farm with his IACS cheques, it’s, he’s a businessman, he,
he’s
made his money out of, he bought all the farms as many outside
business, and
it’s just lining his pocket even more, and, and to me that’s wrong,
it’s the
farmers who should be getting it, the guys who are farm, if he’s got,
making
his money and it’s, he’s using it as a tax dodge, which most of these
business
people are, because of ag, the agricultural, to try and help farmers
pass it on
to their sons, they’re using it as a tax loop-hole, that’s wrong, but
farmers
who, it should, that should only be, if, if, a certain percentage of
your farm,
I’m not saying it has to be a hundred percent because I take, I took
another
job off the farm, and my son and I have been agents in this area for
semen
company selling semen to farm, other dairy farmers, to try and get a
little bit
more money coming in, so you know, I’m not totally, you could say that
I was,
it’s very little, it’s enough to put a bit of bread on the table, it’s
umm, I’m
not totally getting all my income from it, but, I’d like to think at
three
hundred and fifty acres here I was, I would be counted as a, a small
farmer try
to keep, I, I’m, doing what I have to, have to do to try and keep the
family
farm going, and it should go more to them and less to these big guys
6.399.
EM: What percentage of your income is now
coming from
the semen selling
6.400.
CF: Quarter of a per cent, umm it’s very
little, I, I
don’t, I don’t sell much it’s a, it’s very much a part-time, I suppose
it might
bring in about five, six hundred, err five or six hundred quid a year
at the
most, average, you know, not, not a lot, not even enough to pay the
council tax
6.401.
EM: And your income in the thirty years
you’ve been
farming, how, how much has that changed
6.402.
CF: I’m still taking the same, wage now, as
when I got
married in 1975, I still take the same amount out of the farm each
week, as I
did then
6.403.
EM: And I’m assuming it doesn’t go as far
6.404.
CF: No, I’m just glad that I’ve known, it’s
now just me
and umm, the kids are all sort of off, looking after themselves and
it’s just
me that has to do, otherwise I’d be stuck if I had a wife and three
kids to try
and look at, I just, I couldn’t do it, that’s why bus, we’re all going
out of
business, you jst haven’t got the money there to do it, you know, most
people
would be horrid, they think that farmers oh, it’s all rubbish but, what
some
farmers, there’s one guy, he owed the, somebody some money and
he, he gave
them a tractor, cause he didn’t have anything to pay him with, he
didn’t even
have no money to go and buy any grocers with, so he had to give him a
tractor
to pay the bill, umm, I don’t know who it was but it was the umm, the
merchant
told me that, that had happened, we were talking about the state of
farming one
day and he told me, that he’d got, that’d what happened, it’s that bad
6.405.
EM: During umm, Foot and Mouth, do you feel
you got
sufficient sympathy from your neighbours, did, did you feel very
isolated or
where a lot of people
6.406.
CF: They were brilliant
6.407.
EM: Ringing you up and
6.408.
CF: They were brilliant, umm, number of
people said if
you want anything, just shout, you know, umm, you want any money, the,
our
accountant went round, you know, okay he didn’t charge us anything for
it, he
does our accounts and that, but he, for all the local farmers, he went
round
and picked up cheques and cashed them bought them back some cash so
they had
money if they needed it, or anything like that, umm, people that I know
said,
anything we can do, just give us a shout and we’ll drop it off to you
get it
and drop it off to you, and they were absolutely wonderful
6.409.
EM: So there is some community spirit
6.410.
CF: Yup, well, I’m not saying they all were,
but some of
them were, but those, those are ones who probably, to be fair, the
account’s,
it was in, you could say it was self interest if you were being
cynical,
knowing Bill I wouldn’t say that, he’d, he’d have done it out of the
goodness
of his heart, he’s that sort of guy, a lot of the ones that offered did
have
farming contacts, like one was a wife his, her husband umm, is an
agricultural
consultant, you know, and there was one who had a, a couple of goats
and a
couple of horses and a little holding err on, on the other side of us,
you
know, so, there were one or two, you know, most of the ones who offered
knew
what we were going through, understood
6.411.
EM: And how, how much have you seen the
wildlife change
on your farm in thirty years on this farm
6.412.
CF: I’ll tell you what I saw more change last
year when
they stopped, the people walking across, it was incredible, the
wildlife we had
here, last year, it was incredible, compared with what we see in normal
years
6.413.
EM: What kind of thing
6.414.
CF: Oh, umm the wildlife out in the fields,
umm, we had
err, a pair of woodpeckers nest down by the brook, but it was right
close to
the err, fairly close to the footpath, we have a lot of people go and
exercise
their dogs and nobody even bought a dog and exercised in the field you
know
there was nothing down there the down and the wildlife just thrived,
the
biggest problem we had was the number of foxes as well, god did they
have the,
there were foxes everywhere, foxes we’ve never seen, foxes before, it
was umm,
they, they thrived last year without hunting
6.415.
EM: Did you feel that was a silver lining for
wildlife
for, Foot and Mouth
6.416.
CF: It may just real, it makes you realise
that this
right to roam could devastate wildlife, you know, it d, does worry me
on the,
from the wildlife, not as a personal thing, you know, this is nothing
to do
with me, but seeing how it thrived when nobody was around the
countryside last
year, it does worry me what’ll happen with the right to roam, I’m, it
worries
me that it will devastate the wild, the wildlife, it will just disturb,
not
that they’re going to damage it, but it’s just going to be, disturbed
so much,
they’re not going to nest, they’re going to leave their nests, they’re
eggs
won’t hatch and you’re just loose the species, that does worry me that
6.417.
EM: What about before Foot and Mouth, did,
have you
noticed a decline in wildlife
6.418.
CF: Err yes, you, you, you see it, just the
same, we
used to have flocks of lapwings about the fields, they, they’re no
longer
there, certainly the number of sparrows about has dropped, err, and
probably
starling, we still get a lot of starling round here, but I think not as
many,
the crowds aren’t as big as, black as they used to be, used to come
over in
huge black crowds
6.419.
EM: And what do you put that down to
6.420.
CF: I don’t know because there not actually,
those, the,
the starlings and sparrows are much more urban type birds, they live
around bu,
buildings so, I wouldn’t have said that was down to the farming
practices, the
lapwings does worry me cause I don’t know quite why that is, nobody
else does,
as, as far as I know, there are, I know there are researchers looking
into
that, and I, I think they’re a beautiful bird
6.421.
EM: Do you associate any decline in wildlife
with
pesticide use
6.422.
CF: Umm, not around here, because we use very
little,
we’re very, very, we use very little pesticide, we’re us no, umm,
virtually no
pesticide, it’s all, the only ones we use are to control weeds really
on this
farm, that’s all we’ve ever done here, and err, we don’t shoot, we have
a hunt
come across once or twice a year maybe, depending, maybe more, but err,
they
don’t, you know that’s, they, they just come and go you know, there’s
no big
disruption to wildlife, we’ve had a wonderful amount of wildlife on our
farm
and it’s something I love
6.423.
EM: So it hasn’t particularly
6.424.
CF: Not ours because of the way we farm it,
and we’re
all, most of the farms around, just around us are grass farms, so you
haven’t
got the big arable farms spraying and that on, on the crops so, maybe
we’re a
little bit of an island here, I don’t know, it, it, everybody says it’s
and
island in the old Berks count, hunt country
6.425.
EM: And what do you think about the labelling
schemes,
like, the Red Tractor, or RSPCA’s Animal Friendly mark
6.426.
CF: The Red Tractor, err, the, the, problem
is, none of
them label where it comes from, all it’s saying is it’s done under
good, good
welfare standards, but you’ve got to have more than just that, you need
more
than that at the end of the day, it’s got a be, you, it’s the
labelling,
people need to, want to know where it was produced, they want to know
what was
produced in this company, not packaged in this company, country, they,
they
want to know where it was produced and none of this labelling does
that, the
Red Tractor was originally designed but then it went to court and they
said
that any count, anybody who matched the, any country that matched the
welfare
standards could use it, so that doesn’t do anything, all it, all that
is just
it says umm, there’s some standards and that food’s been produced to
that
standard, not where it comes from
6.427.
EM: And would you like to see labelling that
is specific
to
6.428.
CF: Yeah
6.429.
EM: Would you like it to be more specific
than the
country, but you know , the actual county and
6.430.
CF: No country is good enough and, otherwise
you’re
getting it, hopeless, because umm, like if I’m on the border of two
farms how,
which, which county, county does the, does the lamb come from, Sussex
or Kent,
ha, you know, you can’t do it like that, but country you can do
6.431.
EM: So in terms of local food, in a, in a, in
a
supermarket then
6.432.
CF: If it’s been and done and labelled as
local, then it
has to have where it’s on it, where’s it’s done as local, it should
have you
know, Drayton or Abingdon or Marcham or wherever, I think that should
be on it,
so people, it’s all comes down to if you’re doing it local, it should
be,
because if it’s local, if there’s nothing, it just says you, packaged
in the
UK, what does, no, nobody knows that’s, means it’s local, look, look at
that
going back, earlier on, when we had the umm Union Jack over the umm
cauliflowers, in the superstore, and seventy percent of them were, from
France,
people pick it up, assuming that it’s local, you pick it up and if it’s
umm,
local you assume it’s local, if you pick up with the British flag
hanging over
it, you assume it’s British, since you look at the back of one of the
leaves and
it’s got a little sticker saying produce of France that you realise
it’s not,
umm, the local, if it’s got on it where it’s produced, if it’s
advertised as
local, it should be said where it’s local and it should have the
country of,
origin, no, you know, you can say packaged in Great Britain, fine, but
it
should have where it was produced as well, so people can know, cause
people,
you know, that, it’s, it’s, it’s in the consumers, this is for the
consumer, no
the farmer, this is for the consumer, that’s the biggest comment I had
when I
was out with err, the FFA and that, was how, how can we tell what’s
British,
we’d love to support you but we don’t know what’s British
6.433.
EM: How does your milk get to the shops as it
were
6.434.
CF: It gets picked up in a ruddy great big
tanker, taken
to, nearly down to Brighton, converted, err treated and sent up to
London, or
where ever
6.435.
EM: Is there anyway that that could be more
local for
you
6.436.
CF: Umm, there are small dairies doing it
locally, we
did look at umm, selling to a small dairy but it, it had to be very
tailored
production to fit in with what they could sell, so it made it very
difficult
6.437.
EM: And you, do you have any control of the
price of
that milk
6.438.
CF: None at all, that’s why I went out with
the FFA the
other year but err, as I say, I’m not a hundred percent au fait with
some of
the things they’re doing now, I’m, I’m not that radical, ha, ha
6.439.
EM: So currently, how, who do you feel has
the most
control over farming, the landowners, politicians, the EU, big companies
6.440.
CF: Big companies
6.441.
EM: Supermarkets
6.442.
CF: Supermarkets and big companies
6.443.
EM: They are, they are in control are they
6.444.
CF: Yeah, you know, all, most of our seed is
produced by
two or three, or the fertilisers are produced by two or three, most of
the feed
is produced by tow or three companies, they control everything, the
water that
our cows drink is a monopoly
6.445.
EM: An would you like to see their control
diminished
6.446.
CF: Yeah
6.447.
EM: And how would you envisage that
6.448.
CF: We have to compete, international on a
global
market, why aren’t they, why, how can they get, how can they have the
monopolies or very little competition, they just snuff all the
opposition out,
it’s not right
6.449.
EM: So what would be you’re dream scenario of
how, it
would work
6.450.
CF: I suppose, dream scenario for it to work,
would be
for, how I’d like to farm, is to just get paid, a price for my product,
so that
I can sell it and make enough to make a living, re-invest for the
future,
you’ve got a, you’ve got to buy a new tractor every now and then, and a
new
piece of machinery, I, I don’t want ot go out and have, spend millions
on it,
but you’ve got to do it, it’s the same as anybody who’s got a car,
every now
and then you have to go and buy a new car, the old one wears out,
you’ve got to
buy another one, umm, that’s all, that’s all I want, I, I just want
know, now
if they want to keep the price of food down in the shops, and there’s
welfare
standards for the animals up on this farm then they’ve got to be
prepared to
either subsidise us or pay a bit more for the food
6.451.
EM: That comes back to that each time
6.452.
CF: It does, and that’s where it comes back
to, if, it,
I suppose you could say therefore then it’s umm, ultimately then it’s
at the
Government, if they want to keep the price of the food down to the
consumer, so
the inflation stays down, so there, everybody says aren’t they doing a
wonderful job, then they can’t do that and complain, I had a lovely
sticker
once on my car, if you complain about farming don’t speak with your
mouthful,
and if you want food, you want it produced locally, you want it
produced to
welfare standards, then, put your hand, m, hand in your pocket and pay
for it,
if you don’t, then why make us obey those rules, you know, it comes
back down
to that at the end of the day, you know, we’re just not getting paid
enough for
what, to cover our costs
6.453.
EM: So a system that would work better than
subsidies
would just be to be paid more for it, would it
6.454.
CF: Yeah, I, I think, as far as I’m concerned
yes, I’d
much have it that way, than, I’d much rather be selling my product
6.455.
EM: Yup
6.456.
CF: For a fair, for a price that meant I was
self-sufficient, than, ever thinking you know, and, that, I, I suppose
at the
end of the day, if the Government’s paying subsidies, that’s coming out
of the
tax payers pocket, so if they weren’t paying, spending , paying
subsidies they
could reduce the amount of tax, which meant, they’d have the more money
in
their tax, their pockets to pay for the food, so either you pay it to
the
farmers for the food through the supermarkets, or you pay it to the
taxman and
he pays it back as subsidies, whichever way the consumer’s are paying
for it
anyway, whichever way you do it, it’s just which way round you do it,
and I’d
much rather, see a, the proper price of production reflected in the
product
than, these innuendos subsidy junkies
6.457.
EM: And what’s your experience of set-a-side
been
6.458.
CF: There are people starving in the country
and we are
being paid to not grow crops, you tell me where the logic in that is,
let us
grow crops, buy those crops off us, and send it to the starving
countries, give
it to the far, starving countries, so they can feed their people,
what’s the
point when people an animals are starving in this world of paying us
not to
grow anything, it is ludicrous
6.459.
EM: And yet you have opted into it
6.460.
CF: Don’t have any choice, you have no choice
to opt
into it, you have to put ten percent set-a-side in, it’s law
6.461.
EM: Since when has that been law
6.462.
CF: Since umm, IACS came in, it’s all been
part of it,
when, we’re, to keep the price of the food down, and to make, so
farmers could
try and, the, the theory was for farming to survive, you had to put
money, you
had to put crops into set-a-side to reduce the grain mountain in
Europe, and
that was the theory of it, but, it comes back again, what’s the point
of that,
making us put ten per cent and so if I grow seven hundred acres of
arable, I’ve
got to put, I got seventy, seven hundred acres of arable, I’ve got to
grow
nothing on seventy acres, what’s the point, if they’re going to pay us
a
hundred pound an acre, pay us a hundred pounds an acre, pay, buy have
the crop,
send it out there, feed those people, I, you know, I, it just does not
make
sense to me, I think it’s totally ludicrous
6.463.
EM: And that’s been since when, when
was, do you think,
IACS
6.464.
CF: Oh years, so long as I can remember,
every since
they bought umm
6.465.
EM: You’ve had to do the ten percent
6.466.
CF: Yeah, ever, ever since they’re bought
this umm, the
IACS system in, it’s been, it’s been there, well it used to be fifteen,
I think
it was, and they reduced it to ten
6.467.
EM: And that rotates, that land, or is it the
same
6.468.
CF: It’s up to you basically, it’s the
individual
farmer, err, I don’t, umm, I’m not
6.469.
EM: What fdo you do with yours
6.470.
CF: Were, we tended to use the same bit down
here,
because we used the wettest bit of the field to set-a-side and put the
rest into
maize
6.471.
EM: So it is just the same field that gets
left
6.472.
CF: Well, bit of a field here, because it was
only seven
acres, but umm, where we are going to Sussex, where we’ve got more, we
will be
rotating it
6.473.
EM: How much of your time is spent on
paperwork, would
you say
6.474.
CF: Too much, ha, most evenings I usually get
in, about
half seven, eight, and I do paper work until about eleven or twelve at
night,
then go to bed, get up and check the cows, like last night I was
calving a cow ‘til
the early hours, had a difficult calving, got to bed, got up this
morning, do
the day’s work and then normally I would go back and do the paper work
in the
evening, the paper work or, go, get on the computer to register calves
or, get
passports for the cattle, through the British Cattle Movement Service
6.475.
EM: What bit of paperwork takes up most of
your time
would you say
6.476.
CF: Paying the bills, ha, ha, trying to
balance the
books I should think, I suppose take the most time
6.477.
EM: It’s amazing that you can take the time
to talk to
me when you consider a working day like that
6.478.
CF: Well, from what you explained, what this
is all
about, I think it’s important, that people in the future, and I presume
that
this is going, you say it is going on record, I assume it’s going to be
there
forever, that people can look back and hear the farmers side of why
they’ve,
why things have happened the way they have
6.479.
EM: Well that’s exactly the, that’s exactly
the idea
6.480.
CF: And that, that’s why I will always make
time for
anything like that, I think it’s very important that, we talk to the
public and
the public know what’s going on
6.481.
EM: Okay, I’ve got a few, few more but we’re
coming to
the end, umm, I asked you, I’ve, I’ve kind of heard your, your version
of why
not organic, but you also earlier said you were also anti-GM
6.482.
CF: I’m not very keen on, we, for centuries
we’ve, we’ve
breed and crossed crops and that, that’s breeding, what I don’t like is
that
they’re, this GM crops, this is how, I understand it, I might have got
the
wrong end of the stick, but this is how I’ve understood it, and what
I’ve been
told by the merchants and that, basically, the wonder, the beauty of it
is, you
only need to use one spray, to treat the crop, but you have to buy that
from
the guy who supplied the seed, and that just, worries me there that
somebody’s
getting more control over what you do and that, and one big company
taking more
control, and um, I don’t see the need for that, we’re always looking
for new,
you know, breeds, breeding new, we cross our cows, you know, we don’t
have a
bull here, they’re not married, you know, that’s breeding, it happens
with
humans all the time breeding, I don’t like the idea of manipulating it
so you
that you don’t have to use, you have to use certain sprays and things
like that
and umm, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not at ease with that
6.483.
EM: So you’re more worried about the control
factor than
the environmental, potential environmental problems
6.484.
CF: Well I don’t, I think a lot, it’s umm,
it’s the
words that have stimulated it and ignorance of, people don’t understand
what it
is, you could says that, if you marry somebody because they’re a great
athlete
and you want athletic children, are you genetically modifying your kids
to what
you want them to be, you know
6.485.
EM: Even if
6.486.
CF: And that, that, that’s what, people look
at genetic
modification as doing that, and I think, all it is, is they trying, a
lot of it
is they’ve been trying to breed, some of it is purely economic by, on
the spray
side of it, I’m certain, and they’re, they’re just trying to be, breed
more,
umm, pesticide resistant strains of, and that’s not, I, I, I think the
problem
is, it’s, it’s those two words genetic modification, if they’re called
it, they
called it umm, resistant strain or something, people wouldn’t have the
problem
6.487.
EM: Isn’t it that this time around, unlike
what’s been
happening for centuries, that then they’re cross, they’re crossing with
fish
genes and other, it’s not just plant genes, they’re
6.488.
CF: Well, yeah, you know, that’s what I’m
saying, I’m,
I’m all in favour of breeding, we all breed, for, to improve, but, you
know, I,
I don’t see the need to do, you know, with err, crossing with different
things
6.489.
EM: And sometimes
6.490.
CF: You know, well, err, there again, you
see, I, I, I,
you know, they’re trying to control what happens with disease to the
plant and
that, so you buy their sprays, so do it, I, I, I’m afraid, I’m very
cynical of
big businesses, all they, there not doing it for the benefit of farming
or the
environment, they’re doing it to, to help their pocket, they don’t do
it for
any other reason, that’s all it is, to help their pocket
6.491.
EM: Okay
6.492.
CF: umm, if you weren’t farming, what, what
else do you
thing you’d be doing
6.493.
CF: A lot less work, ha, ha, more time off,
ha, ha, umm,
god knows, I haven’t the foggiest, ha, ha, I really haven’t
6.494.
EM: If you could change some aspect of your
work as a
farmer, what would it be
6.495.
CF: Take the hassle out of it, by being paid
enough to
make a living without having the headaches, I just want, I’s just love
to have
a life
6.496.
EM: An you really don’t think you have that
any more
6.497.
CF: I feel we exist at the moment,
economically, and
work wise, we, cause, we’re all working with less people on the farms
because
the economic situation, we can’t pay ‘em so therefore we’re having to
do more
work, each, each person’s having to put more hours in and more work,
you just,
there’s just no life anymore, you know it worries about my son, he
doesn’t seem
to have the life I’d liked him to have, certainly that I had when I was
his
age, just, he’s just, so, he has to put in so many hours, he doesn’t,
cause,
cause we’ve had to get bigger, we’ve got more cows, you know, there’s
just more
work, more hours involved
6.498.
EM: Has the kind of social structure of
farming and your
farm in terms of class and things like that
6.499.
CF: I think we’re second class citizens now,
definitely
second class citizens, certainly umm, if you look on like an economic
stage,
we’re definitely second class, maybe even third class I don’t know, but
umm, I
like to think that I can act with dignity but it’s not very easy when
you can’t
pay for it, ha, ha
6.500.
EM: What advice would give to someone who’s
starting out
today, in farming
6.501.
CF: To think twice, and then think again, if
you think
you can, if you do your sums right, and you can make it pay, go for it,
but
look very, very carefully
6.502.
EM: And do you see yourself as a custodian of
the land
6.503.
CF: I suppose so yes, I don’t, I don’t know,
I never,
never think about it like that, umm, I want my farm to be a haven for
wildlife,
a place where I, they’ve grown up and I want the place for my kids to,
my
grandchildren to be able to grow up and be healthy and enjoy
themselves, I
want, people to be able to come out and look over the gate and say, god
there’s
some nice cow, those cows look well don’t they, they look nice, they’re
happy,
you know, umm, that’s what, that, that’s it in a nutshell I suppose
6.504.
EM: I mean from what you’ve said to me, it
does seem
that you do care deeply that you know, you have minimised pesticide use
and
6.505.
CF: Yeah, I care about the land, I, I’ve
6.506.
EM: You feel responsible, if that’s not a
custodian
6.507.
CF: Well, I don’t know, what, I, I,
I’ve never thought
of myself as cust, custodian of the countryside, I suppose I am yes, I,
I care
deeply about the count, countryside, I know it has to change, but umm,
these
people who are, some of the things they’re putting through, they don’t
what
goes on in the countryside, how much we rely on hunting and that for
the
countryside, especially on the social side of things, there is, that is
the
most social thing in the countryside is the hunting, and the hunt balls
and
dinners and things like that, it is sociable, because you go there and
enjoy
yourself, if you go to a farming do, you come, some silly bugger comes
along
and tells you, oh, you’re not going to get this year, it’s going to be
a
disaster, you’ve got to watch out, we’re not going to make any money
next year,
that, that’s depressing, ha, but if you go to hunt, to something like a
hunt
do, or something like that, you can kick your heels up and enjoy
yourself, very
important, you’ve got to get out and, relieve the monopoly
6.508.
EM: Well, I’ve come to the end of, of my
questions, I
don’t know if there anything that you feel that, that you’d like to add
6.509.
CF: I don’t know, I, I hope that there are
family farms
going in the future, I have my doubts, the way it is at the moment, I
think no
way, there are less and less youngsters going into farming, were does
that
leave the future, I think the average farmer is, fifty seven or
something like
that, doesn’t that all go very well for the future does it, where, you
know,
what’s going to happen in the future, are we just going to have these
conglomerates who don’t give a dam about the, countryside, just, more,
plough
through with twenty four foot combines, you know, if anything, if this,
if
there’s wildlife in the way, tough, don’t want that, you know, I love
seeing
foxes about, I know some people might think that’s a contradiction of
terms
but, it’s part of the countryside, the hunting it’s, we had the hunt
here one
day, they say they’re found, the foxes are stressed, we were stood
outside the
back of the building, the hunted fox, ran across the back of the
buildings,
literally fifteen yards from me, had a look round, went down to the
bottom of
the field, sat down, scratched it’s ear, had a look round, and then ran
off
across the field at a gentler canter, if that’s stress give me that any
day,
ha, ha, it’s a dam sight easier than farming, ha, ha, ha
6.510.
EM: Thank you very much Chris Freeman for
that very,
kind of you to me so much time and answering all those questions
6.511.
CF: Pleasure, anytime
6.512.
EM: Okay, I’ll just give the date, that’s the
end of the
interview and the date is 6 December 2002
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