Interview
with Christopher
Lewis, farmer
Notes
Interview date:
14 January
2003
Interview
location: Glebe
Farm, Priors Lane, Hinton Waldrist, Oxfordshire. SN7 8RX.
Interviewee:
Christopher
Lewis
Interviewer: Eka
Morgan
Transcript key:
EM:
Interviewer Eka Morgan; CL: Christopher Lewis
Transcript
8.0.
EM: This is Eka Morgan interviewing
Christopher Lewis at
Glebe Farm in Hinton Waldrist on the 14 of January 2003, I’m going to
begin
Christopher by asking you actually how you got into farming
8.1.
CL: I got into farming because, umm, as, as,
as a callow
youth umm, I made up my mind very early on two things, one was that
umm, I’d no
intention of working for anybody else, umm, by that I mean nobody would
ever
employee me, err, and the second thing, that I could not stand city
life, I played
soldiers for a couple of years in London and decided there and then
that err
the sooner I got out of London the better both for London and for me,
umm, it,
that left pretty little, limited number of choices, umm, not being an
academic,
err, and farming seemed to be, possibly the only way, umm, as a rider
to that,
I had a step father who was, err, a medical man and one of his umm,
patients
was umm, a man called Harold Macmillan who was Prime Minister at the
time and I
meet him in the err, waiting room, and he said what are you going to do
with
yourself young man, and I said, I hope to farm Sir, and he said,
excellent, a
very good way of chiselling and getting money away, out of the
Chancellor of
the Exchequer, here end’eth that interview, err, I always remember
that, umm, I
then went to Cirencester for umm , a couple of years, where umm, sadly
I didn’t
concentrate very hard and learnt very little, umm, whilst there I was
fortunate
enough to, get a tenancy of a farm here in Oxfordshire, umm, which is
the other
side of the road, which I, drove you past, umm, and umm, shortly after
that, I
was umm, lucky enough to, umm, that this farm here which is four
hundred acres
came onto the market, having absolutely no capital what so ever I
managed to
rake round and persuade people to guarantee and err, ma, err, in order
to put
the deposit down, and err, we mortgaged it and went from there, that’s
how I
basically got into it
8.2.
EM: Great, and to someone who’s never seen
your farm,
could you give a rough description of your farm
8.3.
CL: Umm, we’re fortunate in, in, many ways of
having two
types of land, one is very light land on top, which, umm, could be
termed
blowing sand umm, and it then runs to the river Thames which we’ve got
a mile
and a half of Thames frontage, err, which is, umm, much heavier land,
liable to
flooding and umm, has completely different problems to that land up the
top
8.4.
EM: Is it flooded at the moment in fact
8.5.
CL: A lot of is been very flooded for the
last
fortnight, yes
8.6.
EM: So what do you tend
8.7.
CL: Living on top of the hill doesn’t affect
us, but,
but, err, we had to get, umm, a flock of sheep off, in a great hurry
umm,
between Christmas and umm, New Year
8.8.
EM: Do you tend not, you don’t get anything
on that land
it’s all for grazing is it, or
8.9.
CL: Err, we’ll come onto that, we have grown
on, a, l,
l, lot of it has been grown, in, in crops, and the majority of it is in
crops,
but there are some areas which have constantly failed, and, we have
been
persuaded by, umm, our lords and masters and, DEFRA, or the Ministry of
Agriculture, whichever you like, that, they can’t support umm, this any
longer,
umm, as, as flooded arable land, and we’ve been persuaded into, umm,
and
environmentally sensitive area scheme, which means that err, it is
heading
towards conservation and that is what a lot of it is in or done on, on,
on the
river now
8.10.
EM: And does, do members of your family help
out on the
farm
8.11.
CL: I have a step son who’s umm, now in his
fourth year,
err, and has been here ever since virtually he left, umm, Cirencester
umm,
having been far more successful there than I was, he actually runs the
place
now and being very, very old umm, I sit back and not criticise but umm,
try to
enjoy life, yet still contribute, umm, which I think, I think a great
deal, he
just thinks that I, cause more trouble than I’m worth, which I’m sure,
you’ll
have to interview him on that one
8.12.
EM: Ha, ha, ha, so he’s the only member
of your family
at the moment working on the farm
8.13.
CL: He’s the only one who’s here, yes
8.14.
EM: And how many, who else is working on the
farm at the
moment
8.15.
CL: Err, we have, one stockman and err, two
arable, umm,
men, umm, what used to be called day men, umm, it’s rather a wonderful
term,
umm, but the stockman is responsible for, just over four hundred cattle
which
we have, umm, and at this time of the year when there isn’t a great
deal going
on, on the arable farm, err, he can draw, umm, as much help as he
needs, umm,
for feeding, bedding up, cleaning out, and whatever, err, and I’ve
always been
a firm believer in umm, mixed farming, mixed as opposed to muddled,
umm, this
lends itself, as I’m concerned, very well, because the, the river
meadows,
which do grow very good grass, err, and odd shape fields which don’t
umm, allow
themselves, umm, naturally to be, arable fields are suitable for cattle
in
quite big mobs or umm, smaller mobs in smaller fields obviously, umm,
it’s an awkward
farm, so umm, that is the way it goes
8.16.
EM: When you were more active on the farm
what, could
you describe your typical day, what sort of time you’d get up and what
kind of
chores and tasks you’d have to do, and when you’d actually be able to
knock-off
8.17.
CL: Bearing in mind, how the whole thing has
changed,
labour wise, umm, when I came, there are, this as it’s currently umm,
setup is,
umm, one, two three, four, five, six smaller farms which have been
amalgamated
into one, and the total labour force that I took over, if I’d kept them
all on,
umm, would have been thirteen, umm, now we’re down to three, umm,
therefore,
one did far more, organisational work in, in, earlier on, than physical
work,
slowly the ratio altered and one’s found one’s doing more and more, err
from an
employers point of view, umm, fewer and fewer machines, but bigger and
bigger
machines, more and more sophisticated machines and, umm, one must
remember that
a lot of the, people that I took over, in my, what I think, a very
short
farming life, umm, where bought up as umm, carters and worked with
horses, umm,
and when I came here, there wasn’t one, of the staff that I took on,
sorry,
there was one, of that lot, that actually had a driving license, umm,
and in
order to bring ‘em into the twentieth century as opposed to the twenty
first
century, umm, we had to, go out and do, a mob driving lesson, umm, and
see
whether the suitability was, was, was such, for people to drive, so it,
it, it
has, changed from, umm what I call the horse age to the computer age,
because
the sprayer that you saw out, umm, as we drove in here, this morning,
umm, that
has got a computer on it, umm, and it’s very different to, setting up a
computer, umm, before going to work to, for the same man who had,
probably had
to, put a, collar on a horse before going to work in his youth, umm, so
there
is a complete revolution has gone on, in, in agriculture
8.18.
EM: What do you feel about, the, the fact of
it being,
employing thirteen people and now four
8.19.
CL: I think there are two ways of looking at
it, one is
economically, it’s obviously got to be better, err, it’s got to be
better
because the whole think is leaner, fitter and whatever, umm, but that
should
reflect on the economics of umm, the district, the farm, the community,
umm,
but sadly that hasn’t happened, umm, just about everybody in this
village, when
I came here, one way or another was, umm, employed here, umm, as you
came in,
there was the, the, the, the sort of equivalent to the blacksmiths
shop, umm,
there was the bakery at the top, umm, there was cottages, retired or
otherwise
of people who worked on the farmers of the village, umm, as I say, I’ve
now got
three, one of which, who lives umm, eighteen miles away and commutes to
work by
motor, therefore we’ve got village houses, we’re down to, err people
that live
in the village, err there, there, there’re, there’re two that actually
involved
in agriculture apart from the small market garden family, who have,
three of
them, but they employee no outside help, so add those two together,
there are
five in agriculture in, in a fairly large village, I think, there are
now,
three hundred and something, umm, adults, that live in this hamlet, of
which
three, umm, it’s, it’s, it’s less than one percent are employed and I
think
this is terribly sad umm, the whole thing is changing, the, umm, the
British
public expects, and I think we’ll come onto this in greater detail, the
British
public expects the country to look lovely, to be kept for it, for them
to be
able to tramp over it, walk over it, play football on the fields, etc,
etc, but
they’re not prepared to put any thing into it, umm, you’ve only got to
see by
driving, anywhere, umm, the filth and squalor on the side of the roads,
people
come out of towns and dump umm, umm there’s no pride and no respect
for, for,
for, the countryside as you and I know it, err and this I find this is
terribly
sad and I can’t see where this is going, they get into their cars at
between
six thirty and seven thirty in the mornings and, they roar off, in
their shirt
sleeves, err, as white collar workers, where they go, god alone knows,
umm,
this time of the year they come back after dark, umm, but they, think
that,
that weekends, as I say, that everything, that, around is theirs and
that they
can dictate, they being the great British public, can dictate how the
countryside should be run and managed, now I think this is the crux of
the
thing, and I think that Mr Blair and his Government, err, and the EEC
and indeed,
widening it still further, have, have, have got to get down to umm,
umm, really
to just thrash out, just what are we looking for, we’ve got global
warming,
umm, we’ve got food being transported for, thousands of miles, umm, by
air,
using enormous quantities of fossil fuel to feed us, yet here, we’re
not
encouraged to do anything towards self preservation, maintenance or
whatever
8.20.
EM: Do you, you, do you have first hand
experience of
comments made by people who live in the village who are going out to
work
elsewhere, I mean, where are you getting that idea from, that they are
expecting, you to preserve the farm as it should be
8.21.
CL: Umm, one has first hand, umm, experience
of this
yes, umm, of course one does, if you farm and, and totally, the, the
village
is, is totally surrounded by agricultural land umm, which, umm, we
farm, umm,
take an example of this, if, umm, as only recently happened, umm, that
we are
spreading farm yard manure on, the windward side of the village, umm,
complaints have reached me that, umm, this is nauseas and it’s unfair
and why
can’t I go and spread it elsewhere, umm, now if this was, umm, a very
basic commodity,
such as sewage sludge, which I had purchased from, umm, the Thames
Water, or
the Environment Agency, which it’s, it’s well known and carefully
documented
that it is available and I then spread that up to the boundaries of the
houses,
then I would feel that, that, I was behaving in an underhand way, but
umm,
people cannot accept that umm, country, umm, animals produce, country
smells,
umm, not long ago they were complaining that on Sunday we get up and
feed our
cattle, umm, we do that with a tractor and, and, and a machine behind
it, umm
why can’t we arrange that we feed our, umm, cattle, umm at midday, so
that we
don’t disturb umm, the umm, umm, the people who are having a lie-in on
Sunday
morning, try pointing out to them, that perhaps the stockman that are
feeding,
would like to, get their chores done early and then have the Sunday
off, they
look at you, in absolute amazement, and say well that’s up to you to
organise a
rota system, umm, try telling somebody who lives next door to, who’s
elected to
live next door to a motorway or next door to London airport or anything
like
that, why can’t they organise the flights so that they can have their
lie-in,
and the answer to that is tough, umm, no, because it’s countryside, we,
umm,
are expected to be umm, at the beckon call of umm, all townees, umm,
that does
that answer that
8.22.
EM: Yes, it very much does, umm, so, you’ve
mentioned a
few changes already, for a start, going form thirteen people, working
on the
farm to four, umm, could you just, err, detail a little bit more other
changes
that you’ve seen in the forty-two years that you’ve worked on the farm
8.23.
CL: I think economically, umm, there, are,
are the
greatest changes, umm, the frightening thing is, if we get back to the
value of
land, err, and look at it as a percentage, the return one got from the
value of
land, that return, in which ever way you look at it, and I’m not going
to bore
you with figures, because I haven’t got them in my head, umm, but the
return on
capital has gone down and down and down, to such an extent that, at,
at, this
moment we’re in, what is commonly called, a negative equity, i.e. there
is no
return on capital invested, what is capital invested, I’m lucky, I
bought land,
this farm here, which I bought in 1960, umm, I paid the exorbitant
price of a
hundred pounds an acre for, umm, an old neighbour, from next door
village came,
who was then age seventy eight, umm, splendid man, and produced a
letter, which
the local estate agents, had offered umm, this farm for, and during the
war,
umm, for ten pounds an acre, and he said, I want to shake the hand of a
rich
man, umm, and I felt that I’d, you know, really made a fool of my self,
umm,
today, this land is worth in excess of two thousand pounds an acre,
well, I
know that, if, if, if I sold this or put it on the market today and in
view of
the recent, very recent umm, housing crises or fall back in housing
prices, or
fall back in housing prices, umm, I probably wouldn’t sell it, but, if,
if, the
guide prices given to me by, the land agents, estate agents, in Oxford
and, and
it’s environs, umm, put it at two thousand pounds an acre, well, if
you, or
your generation came in here, to farm this, at two thousand pounds an
acre,
umm, you’d be absolutely skint and bankrupt within three months because
you
couldn’t pay the first instalment of the mortgage or anything else, I
mean, it
would be, just impossible, so one’s got to look at, why have we got
this
artificial pricing of, umm, agricultural land, and the answer is two
fold, one
is that there are a lot of people from the Continent who come over and
invested, not so much in these parts but in East Anglia, but we have
got quite
a number of, of, of farmers who come in, because land in this country
is
cheaper, per se, than anywhere else in Europe, I’m leaving out Eastern
Europe,
but in, in, in Western Europe, within, umm, the Common Market
countries, umm,
as it is today, err, the businessman, gets tax relief on land, that he
buys, so
that is automatically going to put land prices artificially high, if
you were a
city whiz kid, you could buy a house, and it’s land, and you’d get all
sort of
tax advantages, we have got to compete with those people for the price
of land
upon which we wish to make a living, so, there is a big question mark
in my
mind as to where, the value of land ought to be
8.24.
EM: Though I thought, France, France had very
cheap
prices, people are always selling, buying farms in France for
8.25.
CL: Exactly, a lot of our go ahead young men
are going
to, to, to France, the tax concessions in this country, despite the
fact that
we’re in the EC are different, are different, they can get tax
advantages, the
Germans, the Swedes, the Austrians, the Belgians, I don’t know of
many French
people who have farms and, and estates in this country, umm, but,
because
France is very much, is a very big country, and umm, they can buy in,
in
France, but umm, I can tell you that for a fact, that, that there
people,
Arabs, a lot of them, have bought big estates, we are competing against
them,
we’re competing, we’re only seventy six miles from London, we’re
competing
against the city boys who have had enormous payouts, in the way of huge
slush
money, to me, slush money, bonuses, they’re either taxed at forty per
cent on
this, gift, that they’ve got, or they can roll it into something else,
and
rolling it into land, and they can buy a house in the country, a farm,
and, and
land, and they can set them up, call themselves farmers in inverted
commas,
err, they get VAT concessions, so, I’m not blaming them, umm, but this
is
actual fact, umm, if, if I know, that if I wish to increase the size of
my
business and I umm, a farm locally came on the market, I would be
competing
with that sort of city money, umm, and I, I, I, I mean this is, this
is, well
documented
8.26.
EM: Okay, I’m going to move on, and ask about
you, how
you keep in contact with other farmers and what is happening abroad,
umm, how,
what is your sort of main way of finding out the latest developments in
farming, both here in the UK and abroad
8.27.
CL: Umm, I read a lot, I listen a lot, umm, I
watch a
certain amount umm, of, of, of television documentaries, umm, on
factual
things, umm
8.28.
EM: What kind of thing do you read in order
to be
informed
8.29.
CL: umm, there are lots of publications which
come out,
umm, quite regularly, there are lots, of, of, things put out, umm, of
outlooks
from umm, business consultants, umm, there are lots of, of documents
which come
out from, the Royal Agricultural Society of England, umm, journals,
etcetera,
umm
8.30.
EM: And in your very active days of farming,
did you
still
8.31.
CL: I’m still terribly active
8.32.
EM: Right now
8.33.
CL: I do spend, even now, yes, I mean, I, I
do, I spend
during the, busy months, I have umm, there are in excess of, of three
umm, consecutive
weeks when I spent in excess of a hundred hours, on a machine, err, per
week
8.34.
EM: I was going to ask you in, in your active
life, did,
how did you find the time to keep up to date and read all these
8.35.
CL: Err, one, because it, it’s
cyclical, seasonal, umm,
this is, is December, January, umm, there ain’t lot going on, err and
it’s,
umm, relatively cold, err, and the older you get, the, the more one
blood
thins, and I say, I’ve got work to do in the office and I creep in and
I read, umm,
umm, I don’t necessarily come in to read novels, I don’t necessarily
come into,
to read, umm, statistical things on agriculture because either way
you’d be
umm, driven mad, umm, but one, one does read and there are some, very
good,
umm, articles appear in, journals, umm, call them trade journals, and
8.36.
EM: Do you read the Farmers Weekly
8.37.
CL: Yes, on does read the Farmers Weekly, one
gets a
broader, umm, umm, umm, view of, of, things from other magazines as
well, as I
say, there’s, there’s, the, umm, CLA magazine is extremely informative,
a lot
of things have references in the back of them and one rushes off, and,
err, the
references, that, that one reads about umm, in, in any scientific
journal, you
can further it, umm
8.38.
EM: Do you find, you’re
8.39.
CL: I get things
8.40.
EM:Sorry
8.41.
CL: off the internet
8.42.
EM: You do
8.43.
CL: umm, apart from the fact I can’t see the
dam thing,
my arms aren’t long enough to get away, can’t use the keys, and, and,
and the
screen at the same time, so I have to shout for help, and, and one of
my
nannies has to, get, get, get it off the internet for me, no it’s not
quite as
bad as that, but I do get things off the internet, umm
8.44.
EM: And do you have contact with other
farmers, how much
do you have contact with other farmers discussing, you know, your
experiences
8.45.
CL: Oh I went to, umm, err, Home Grown
Cereals
Authority, lunch time yesterday, which ended at four o’clock, err, and
we had
umm, two hours of, of, of tossing things around, umm, of ways and
techniques of
improving things, how bad things are etcetera, and I think I’ve got my
finger
on the pulse
8.46.
EM: And do you have contact with farmers in
other
countries
8.47.
CL: I’m going to, New Zealand, umm, in a
fortnight
today, umm, specifically to look at, umm, how New Zealand has cooped
with, umm,
the problems it’s had, and there, in the late seventies, umm, I’ve been
before,
and I’m going on, on a, a fact finding tour, umm, in the seventies when
they
had their big crash, the price of agricultural land dropped by fifty
per cent,
and subsidies went out the window, and they were left with virtually,
total
subsistence farming, and umm, I’m going to see, how that will apply
when and
if, umm, we pull out of this dreaded economic, economic, European,
whatever
it’s called, umm, and we’re left on our own because, umm, it’s
painfully
obvious that we cannot continue as we are
8.48.
EM: Just out of interest, when you go round
New Zealand
will you be put up by other farmers, or, is that the way it works, do
they kind
of, put you up while you’re on your fact finding mission
8.49.
CL: Umm, err, the other countries are the
same as this
count, country, in as much as, as bed and breakfasts and farm stays
have umm,
cropped up, and, I certainly never, don’t think about staying in smart
hotels,
we get um, the farm house bed and breakfast, umm, book and umm, when we
find
somebody in any country, err, and I’ve done this for the last four
years in
Africa, umm, as soon as you find somebody who’s half intelligent, he’s
usually
got umm the grapevine out and he will direct you onto somebody who’s
equally,
if not more intelligent further down the road and if you, you only need
a small
number of contacts in any country and the thing snowballs and you’re
passed on,
umm, and you usually find that you’re nearly killed by hospitality,
err, if you
come back, alive, you’ve got to wonder why you haven’t died of
alcoholic
poisoning
8.50.
EM: Ha, ha, okay, I want to ask you about
the, the, the
EU, which you mentioned but I’m just going to finish off, your contact
err with
the outside world, what about Farming Today, is that useful to you at
all, do
you listen to that
8.51.
CL: I never listen to Farming Today, no, umm,
basically
because it’s the wrong time of the day, I find, I don’t want to hear
other
people’s problems at that time of the day, one’s mind is got so many
problems
of it’s own at that time of the morning, err that, no, I don’t, but I
rely on a
number of people who are not related to farming at all, have no dealing
with
farming, who ring me up and say, did you hear on farming today, could
it be
possible, err and I can always apply for a transcript or, or, or ask
them,
whatever, umm, no I don’t listen to Farming Today, I know I should,
it’s one of
the few times of the day when I like to think that I’m either getting
up to go
and do something or umm, I’m very keen on, on classical music, and it’s
one of
the few times of the day when I do actually listen to some decent music
at that
time of the morning
8.52.
EM:And what about The Archers
8.53.
CL: Ha, ha, no, I don’t listen to The
Archers, umm,
it’s, it’s fictional, and umm, a tiny brain like mine can only absorb
so much,
and err, as soon as you start getting science fiction err, into it,
umm, then
err, you’re down the road to umm, a certain unfortunate end
8.54.
EM: What about the NFU, are you a member of
the NFU
8.55.
CL: I am indeed a member of the NFU, yes
8.56.
EM: And do you feel well represented by it
8.57.
CL: I think the NFU is in, in, in an
invidious situation
at the moment, umm, the President of the NFU, both this one and the
previous
one were umm, we had good relations with them, umm, we’re friends, yes,
I
thought can call them friends, and umm, we umm, I have a great respect
for them
, I think they’ve got the most difficult job to do, because we have a
Government which is not remotely interested in doing anything for
British
agriculture, and err, it doesn’t matter whether you’re umm,
representing or, a
representative of the Tenent Farmers Association, Country Land Owners
err, or
the err NFU or the Countryside Alliance, or anything else, umm, we are
ruled,
and this is fact, umm, by umm err, large majority of politicians who
live in,
umm, towns and cities and the rest of us that live in rural areas are
umm, not,
I don’t think looked after umm, most frightfully well, and I think this
applies
to umm, both sides of the House, I don’t think it’s, it’s but the, but
the
Government of the day gets the umm, takes most of the blame for the
current
situation, traditionally labour government have been rather kinder to
British
agriculture, and I think that somewhere down the line, umm, the Prime
Ministers
got to listen to the President of the United States, will take a leaf
out of
the, the President of the United States umm, book, that a strong and
healthy
American agriculture is the basis of umm, a strong economy for America,
we’re
teetering on the brink, we manufacture nothing in this country, err, we
are
about to go to, I think, quite a large economic spiral downhill,
because
nothing is produced, we’re relying on everything to be imported, umm,
and the great
British public expects the very cheapest it can get, it doesn’t give a
dam
under, umm, what conditions they are produced, umm, and I mean, I can
cite, any
number of examples, and, and, and, and, and I’ sure you don’t need me
to tell
you, but the greatest worry of the lot is, the chicken episode, we had
umm
Edwina Curry and Salmonella, err and every since then, umm, there are
so many
rigorous checks put in for the poultry industry and I have a cousin who
had an
enormous flock of poultry, he, it, it, it virtually bankrupted him,
umm, the
umm, the rules and regulations that are put in and, and, in that
particular
industry, yet we can import, millions upon millions of, of umm,
chickens from
South America err, from, the far-east, which I can assure you are
produced
under the most unsavoury ways, because they’re produced abroad, one
automatically assumes, they are subject to the same regulations as
things that
are produced in this country, and this is just not true
8.58.
EM: When would you date the demise or the
crisis, where
would you say that, that it began, you say both members of the house,
both
sides of the house are equally to blame, but when, when do you think, I
mean in
your forty two years, farming so far, what, I mean was there, was there
a
hay-day at all in that, in those forty two
8.59.
CL: I think immediately, I’m talking now, I
mean it
makes me sound as though I’m a hundred and, god knows what, immediately
after
the war, umm, people when they were hungry grabbed anything there was
to eat,
and they didn’t question it, whether it was produced on the black
market,
whether it was produced in this country, whether it came in food aid
and umm,
let’s, umm, let’s umm, transpond our ideas to umm Zimbabwe at the
moment, if we
were in their situation err, we wouldn’t worry whether the maize that
came in
was genetically modified, whether it was produced in the United States
with
artificial fertiliser, whether it was organically umm, produced, or
whatever,
one would say, one was a Zimbabwean now and hungry, one would say, for
gods
sake, give me that bloody bag of maize, and we’ll argue about it later
on, umm,
and I think that’s where I came in, err, at that stage, when
agriculture was
very buoyant, everything one produced, err, and we were encouraged to
produce more,
more, more to become self-sufficient and I suppose that it was from
about the
seventies onwards, that umm, the public questioned what they were
eating, and
quite rightly too, umm, umm, but I think they’ve taken this too far,
and if you
take an analogy of the British Motor industry, everything is now
produced
abroad, you can’t, well you can, but you’ve got to pay like hell for
it, umm, a
motor car that is not produce umm, in, in, abroad, i.e. something that
is
bespoke, in this country, we have rings fenced British agriculture, by
saying
that the, the EC has got to have umm, dictates, which say, how things
are done,
err, they make goodness knows how many rules, umm, which, we adhere to,
but
Europe does not, I went on a fact finding tour in November, two months
ago to
France, umm, and we went onto a farm that was producing Pate de Fois
Gras, and
umm, there they were feeding these duck umm, killing them on the farm,
putting
the, the, the Fois Gras into containers, and selling them, and I asked
through
and interpreter, so that I got an unbiased answer, umm, what happens if
you
have an inspector, what does the inspector say, were the health
regulations,
enforced by the EC and he looked at me and said, puh, and waived his
arm, as
much as to say, don’t bother with that sort of question, we flunk them,
the
dictate
8.60.
EM: We flood them
8.61.
CL: flout them
8.62.
EM: flout them
8.63.
CL: We flout them, umm, and I think I saw
something in,
in, was sent to me only this week, from last weeks Scotsman, saying
that the
EC, nine hundred dictates come out in, umm, the last year, umm, Germany
has
flouted four hundred and something, France had flouted three hundred
and umm,
some and we’d flouted three, zero three, i.e. we are a nation of law
abiding
citizens, we therefore when, the Government or the, the powers that be,
say,
you will do something, we do tend to do them, this costs money, Spain
doesn’t
give a dam, they kill their sheep and whatever virtually at the
side of the
road, umm, the slaughter houses, this is another subject, the reason
that
British beef costs so much is that, it is being killed by local
slaughter
houses, having to be closed because they can’t coupe with the
regulations, the
health inspector, the meat inspector, and every other dammed inspector,
therefore
it’s been put out to much bigger factories, we used to have half a
dozen
slaughter houses within, ten or fifteen miles from here, err, now there
is only
one, umm, most of the cattle that I sold from here, either go to
Somerset or to
York to be slaughtered, look at the cost, where does the cost end up,
with the
farmer, since foot and mouth, we have to put up with, umm, compulsory
disinfection of the vehicles we take them in, what does that cost,
twenty five
pounds per lorry, in order to get it cleaned out, can’t I bring it back
here
and do it, how do we know you’ll do it, do I really want to bring any
disease
back here, I mean, in France, in Germany, anywhere else, this wouldn’t
apply, I
mean it, it, it, it, they just wouldn’t, they just wave them aside, and
get on
with it
8.64.
EM: So what would your answer be to at the,
to abattoirs
8.65.
CL: Well I think we’ve got to get down to
regional
farming, I think that, that, this is just breaking the ice, farmers
markets,
umm, diversify yes, diversify is a frightful word, how can you, as a,
as a, a
large scale arable type farmer, diversify, what can you diversify into,
umm, I
couldn’t possibly think, with, with three men on the place of, of,
diversifying
into growing mange tout, mange tout have got to be flown in from Kenya,
which
they are, I’m unlikely to diversify into putting up thousand of acres
of, of,
greenhouses or poly-tunnels in order to grow kiwi fruits, umm, because,
surprise, surprise there are climates in this world that grow kiwi
fruits, umm,
more effectively, and more efficiently, I’m not going to compete with,
umm,
South Africa growing Outspan oranges, umm, because we don’t grow
oranges, I
mean, there are basic things which can be grown, umm, and which can’t
be grown
in this country, which have to be, flown-in, umm, we can produce pig
meat, we
could produce pig meat, economically, that’s been taken away from us,
umm
8.66.
EM: Could you tell me about that, your
experience of
having to, you did have pigs on the farm and you
8.67.
CL: I had, I had a, yes, I had a, umm, a
separate pig
farm, which was umm, highly mechanised, umm, we thought very well run,
fiscal
figures were extremely good, we were a breeding herd, and a fattening
herd,
err, on the MLC coatings we were always in, in the top ten percent,
dare I say
we were usually in the five, the top five percent, umm, our health
standard was
of, of the highest, we were in every voluntary umm, health scheme, umm,
we were
multiplying up for breeders for others, i.e. we were working for a
large
company, and there were premiums all the way down the line, umm, but
after in,
what was it, err, seven, eight years ago, when the figures started
tailing off,
umm, we suddenly found, that we were loosing money and we monitored
everything,
we had a cost and work account, so we, we, because we couldn’t accept
the
figures we were doing were right, because they were always coming out
on the negative
side, umm, we lost twenty-five thousand pounds in one year and twenty
seven
thousands pounds the following year, and surprise, surprise, I put my
arms up
and said I can stand this no longer they must go, err, what affect did
that
have, it made people redundant, umm, it umm, meant that there was an
enormous
amount of buildings etcetera that, that were left, umm, unproductive
because
they were specialised, buildings err, and they, still are, we sold
some, umm,
but umm, it, yes, it left a nasty taste in one’s mouth, because one
felt one
had been a failure, err, and I think anybody that’s had any enterprise
that is,
has, has come unstuck, umm, does feel that their a failure, umm, but
again the
regulations are such, that umm, pigs can be produced from abroad, err
and
shipped-in, umm, a lot of them, in, in, in bring us down was Demark,
which umm,
subsidised it’s pig industry, Government subsidised them, umm, did
trade
missions and goodness knows what, did immediate things through to
supermarkets,
umm, and Danish bacon in this country was, was err, was the best,
Polish bacon
now is umm, umm Romanian, Czechoslovakian, umm, anything you’d like to
name
other than British, umm, that is the one industry that I can see that,
umm, I
now think, that it is, is, is probably a good thing that we have phased
out, or
that there are fewer pigs, because my goodness, I mentioned a minute
ago the
question of smalls, country smells, the one country smell, that I
really can’t
stand, and I don’t think that the great British public ought to stand
umm, is,
umm the smell of, of, of umm pig muck, umm, because it is, simply
appalling,
and we haven’t managed to get a method of injecting it into the soil,
to get
away from, from the smell and therefore question, should we be having,
umm, pig
units, big pig units, on top of the Downs, well away from civilisation,
umm, in
the Highlands umm, on Sharp Fell, where should pig units be in this
country, if
they want them in Poland and they can, and, and, and it’s doing Poles a
good
turn, now that I’m out of the thing, I feel that, so be it, I don’t
think that
the Government’s ever been very keen on, umm, subsidising the pig
industry
8.68.
EM: So you actually said that, that, pigs can
be
economic but you, you actually advise
8.69.
CL: I, they’re not economic here, no
8.70.
EM: I thought you said that one form of
diversification
was pigs
8.71.
CL: No, no, no
8.72.
EM: Could work
8.73.
CL: No, I said the one thing, that umm, pigs,
was one
form of, of, increasing production on this farm, which we tried, which
hasn’t
worked
8.74.
EM: Oh, sorry, right, right, got you
8.75.
CL: umm, definitely, it, it, it was, and
always has been
an accepted part of, of, umm, this part of the world, always has had a
fairly
high pig population, you’ve only got to go down to Wallingford or
across to,
umm, the Downs or, or whatever and you come across, usually the first
thing
that hits you, is, is, is the sight of these huts of outdoor pigs
which,
there’s, one method of, of doing them, umm, others were big intensive
buildings, another method of doing them, umm, but the first thing that
usually
hit you is the smell, and umm, I do feel very sorry for people that
have to put
up with that, because I feel it’s an unnatural smell, and it’s day-in,
day-out
8.76.
EM: What do you feel about the
recommendations of the
Food and farming Commission to switch from subsidising production to
subsiding
environmental, to, to, sorry, environmental subsidies
8.77.
CL: I think that there an awful lot of grey
areas, umm,
I think that it’s err, as I say, we’ve got to stop and have a look at
which way
we are going, umm, we all recognise, not only the farming industry but
the
whole, British public realise that, that, that, umm, things have got to
change,
umm, the Uruguay umm, conference was such the, the last Johannesburg
umm,
conference, which ended in complete shambles, err but they did come out
with
certain things they started slinging mud, err, at each other, that umm,
that
things have got to change, umm, go back a step, over a third of the
population
of the world is below subsistence level, the rich countries have got to
support
the poor countries, now whether this is through aid, through trade,
umm, is not
for me, because there are professionals, I’ve talked to people, in
places like
the world bank and umm, agricultural advisors the world over, umm, and
there,
there are more ways than one of killing a cat, umm, I think we’ve got
to
concentrate on doing what we can do best, if we, um, um, um say that we
are
going to become park keepers as farmers, and just keep the place
looking
lovely, umm, this has got to be very clearly defined, are you going to
say that
the whole of England is going to be kept as a, as a park of just the
scenically
beautiful areas such as Dartmoor, Westland, umm, pretty parts, because
if
you’re giving a grant to somebody, there’s got to be a boundary, and
the one
farm or the estate, or the village that’s just out of the boundary,
could say,
why should he get x pounds for doing dam all and I don’t, so who is
going to be
the judge, the jury, the executioner as to where the axe falls, these
are the
grey areas that are so terribly difficult, err, we’ve got an
environmentally
sensitive umm, area, along the Thames here, where there is a subsidy
umm which
is payable to the Upper Thames reaches, that stops, umm, here you are,
the
Upper Thames tributaries, the environmentally sensitive areas, they are
paying
various tiers of payments to, luckily to me, because I’m here, in the
Upper
Thames area, but a great friend of mine, who farms Lechlade which is
further up
the Thames, is not included in that, he cannot apply for those
subsidies
despite the fact that he’s on the Thames, he’s still the upper reaches,
why, oh
well, the scheme never extended quite far enough, but it’s been there
for five
years, why should this be, more of an environmentally sensitive
area than
Wallingford, Marlow, Teddington, where does the Thames go after that,
Central
London, I mean, I, I, it doesn’t make sense, you know, it’s not
possible to,
to, to define this, so
8.78.
EM: And how would, how does that subsidy for
the
environmental sensitive compare to what you might have got from
8.79.
CL: Others
8.80.
EM: Growing, growing, no, from growing, from
actually
producing, using the land as arable, or
8.81.
CL: Umm, what they’re trying to do, it would
seem that
they’re trying to do, is to, umm, there, there are, I mean, let, let,
I’ve,
I’ve taken that one out of context, but there, there are, Country
Stewardship
schemes, which we can all join into, umm, if you’re committed to that,
umm,
you’ve got to give a, a financial commitment that you will, improve the
hedges,
that you’ll widen the margins, that you will do this, and you won’t do
that,
and you won’t put fertiliser on here and will do, other things, all of
which,
the effect is, that it is lower the, the production of this country, I
was
brought up to, umm, to do the very best one could, umm, I mean, if,
when, at,
at, ones junior school you ran in a umm, umm, a race, you didn’t try
and come
last, you, the idea was to win, umm, if you were playing a silly card
game,
umm, at one’s boarding school, the idea was to, to win as much, not to,
to, to,
to loose as much, when you’ve started, umm, and you got to exam time,
you
wanted to do your best, not your worst, when you entered, a, a firm or
business, or anything else, you wanted to, be in the top whatever umm,
thing it
was, for production, for, for, it, that’s where you got your good marks
8.82.
EM: But is it more profitable
8.83.
CL: But now, we are, have, I entered farming,
the idea
was to get the maximum out of every acre as economically as we could,
now the
philosophy totally change, but I’m too old to change, I look at a piece
of land
and say, what can I produce off this economically, not is it, right to
turn the
whole thing over, to be paid by the Government, knowing that Government
funds
are going to go down and down and down, umm, to set it a side to, to do
nothing
with it, and this is, to me, fundamentally wrong, because immediately,
because
I’ve travelled quite a bit, you think that other parts of the world,
other
people who would give their high teeth to have land like this, to have
water,
to be able to, natural rainfall, umm, to have, to be able to produce
food, from
this, when they are starving, now there’s something terribly wrong,
this is one
of the things that I say, the world has got to settle down, to, to work
it out,
does this make sense to you
8.84.
EM: Absolutely, and, I, I, I’ve several
related
question, one is that one of the farmers that I interviewed said that
he would
prefer, he felt, he was treated like a social leaper because of the
sub,
subsidy junky
8.85.
CL: Yes
8.86.
EM: And he said, he would prefer, he said,
the tax payers
going to pay either way, he would prefer that his, he had no subsidy
and his
food was more expensive, what do you feel about that, what do you feel
about
the whole subsidy issue, the, the best way to handle it
8.87.
CL: And this was a farmer who said this to you
8.88.
EM: A farmer said he would actually prefer,
because he
feels that he’s treated as this subsidy junkie, he would prefer, to,
that his,
the food that he produced, was more expensive, and there was no subsidy
and
then, what I think his logic was that the tax payer would pay less in
sub, in
terms of subsidising farmers, whether that would immediately affect the
tax
payer
8.89.
CL: Yeah, yeah, one, one hopes, that, that he
was in a,
in a medium-high income bracket, umm, where it didn’t really matter to
him,
whether he was umm, paying a little amount of money for his cauliflower
or an
enormous amount of money for his cauliflower, umm, going into
depressed areas
of this country, go down to Cardiff, to Swansea, go up to Liverpool,
umm, go to
Macclesfield, go across to Northumberland, where the miners have lost
their
jobs, there’s high unemployment, go to just outside where my sister in
law
lives in Glasgow and err, see, the poverty and ask the same question,
would you
rather, umm, pay more for your food, umm, or would you pay less for
your food,
you’ll get a very sharp answer, umm, so it, it, again it’s horses for
courses,
umm, if we didn’t know anything different and food was more, I think
you’d get
more beggars on the street, you’d get more, people on social security,
umm, it,
it, it’s swings and roundabouts, I’m, I can’t see how it’s ever going
to be
solved in, in one fell hit, hit, you come back to the agricultural
thing, umm,
the more people, umm, pay, or think they’re paying-in, umm, to a umm,
system,
the more they want to be part of it, umm, if your paying tax, and the
News of
the World, The Daily Mail, or whatever it is, makes a, umm, a thing
about it,
that you are paying these farmers to drive round in big Land Rovers,
etcetera,
etcetera, a wonderful analogy to that is, umm, only in last weeks
spectator,
umm, there was, umm, an article, umm, about the, the royal
palaces, and umm,
the person who wrote this said, that she personally, didn’t mind
contributing,
she’d worked it out, four pence a year, umm, for umm, Prince
Michael to live
in umm, Kensington Palace, and she was perfectly prepared to let, for
the sake
of peace, to pay four pence because, every tax payer in the country is
paying
four pence and at the day, it didn’t really matter to her, and that
puts it in
context, yet when I find people that come here, and start walking all
over this
place and regarding it as though it’s their own, umm, we know our
rights, and
we this, and they bring their litter down, they let their dogs go, and
their
children all over the place, and, and, and cattle are let out, and,
and, err,
goodness knows what, we are park keepers, but we haven’t got the right
of the
park keepers in Oxford, or in, in, in London, or in the Krueger
National Park,
or anything else, I mean there, they adhere to rules, um, um, um, go to
the
safari park, you know, you don’t just behave as you like, this is what
we get,
um, they drive right through the farm, because the rivers down there,
and you
say look, there’s a notice up there, saying it’s a private road, they
drive
across the field, you say, where are you going, we’re going to the
river, but,
there are demarcations saying there’s a road, and this is private land,
we
bloody contribute to it mate, aha, societies altering, it’s going to
take a lot
to educate people, are we spending enough money on education, are we
spending
enough money on thoughts, I don’t know
8.90.
EM: So what about the subsidy question, what
would your
ideal scenario be, with subsidies
8.91.
CL: I think, it’s going to be both, there’s
got to be a
production subsidy, err, um, um, the, the, everybody, every article,
every
thing you pick up to do with agriculture, is diversify, diversify into
what,
with had big thing, not long ago, diversify into golf
courses, umm is this
going, are we a nation of great golfers, where there are going to be
golf
courses absolutely everywhere, diversify, all derelict farm buildings
must
become umm, either storage buildings, or they must become, umm, office
blocks in
the country, where are these people going to be, that want to store
things and
want to, err, umm, umm, work in, in, in offices in the country, what
the hell
are they doing, umm, where are they going to come from, are we going to
import
them from Turkey, from Pakistan, or, or, or what, I mean, the, the
imported
people that we’ve got imported into this country want to live in a
tight night
community, and, whether it’s Bradford, or Leicester, or whatever, they
don’t
want to be spread all over the country doing their own thing in little
factories here, there, and everywhere, there’s a communications
problem, umm, I
don’t know, I, I don’t, I just don’t know, it’s, it’s not my scene, I
can’t see
the way out of this umm, spiders web, umm, we’ve got ourselves into a
whole,
umm, and the more you look into it, umm the more frightful it is, umm,
but it
comes back to this economic return on capital invested, because that is
what,
all of us have got to focus on, can we do without subsidies, no, can we
do with
foreign competition, and, and still produce and keep our heads above
the water,
no, umm, can we continue in the CAP as it is, no, umm, bring us out of
the CAP,
will we be on our own, should we be allied more to America that we are
at the
moment, heaven forbid in view of the, err, the way the political world
is going
at the moment, I, I, it, it, I don’t know, umm, we, we, are a nation,
used to
be a nation of traders, we used to be a nation of traders, we used to
be a
great, a great country with a Commonwealth, umm, we’ve kicked Australia
and New
Zealand virtually in the teeth and told them to, err, umm, go to hell,
umm, and
we’re keen on trading with countries that I’ve mentioned, umm
8.92.
EM: You’ve said that you wanted to get out
of, of the
EU, where does that mean you stand on the Euro
8.93.
CL: I don’t think that, err, I love the idea
of, of, of
the Euro per se, I think it’s wonderful, I mean I love going to, to, to
France
and, and, and flipping over from France to Spain, or from France into
Belgium
and having the same currency, and not having to think, oh glug, glug,
glug,
we’ve got to fill up our car in the next, umm, umm five kilometres
because as
soon as we get to the boarder diesel is, is ten percent more over the
boarder,
I mean it’s the same now, right the way through, umm
8.94.
EM: What about for the UK
8.95.
CL: Umm, well, I mean it, it, it’s, it, it is
8.96.
EM: For farming
8.97.
CL: Complete nonsense, whether it’s farming
produce or
anything else, umm, wine, booze, spirits, cheese, umm, whatever, you
have
people going to France to buy, it is that much cheaper over there, how
come,
umm, why is, is, is food err, excreta, umm, I can’t answer that
question, but
it physically is, we’ve got the two tier system, umm
8.98.
CM: But would the
Euro be
good for British farming
8.99.
CL: I think the Euro might be, but being umm,
umm, I
personally am, am, terribly anti joining up any more with, with, umm,
the
European economic community than we are at the moment, a nation of free
traders, I think, umm, I honestly, I’ve never been in, in that
situation, I
think that if we joined umm, further down the economic community,
that’s where
an awful lot of our things, stem from, umm, if you’ve seen the figures,
which
I’m sure you have, umm, as to how much we’re supplying, umm, towards
the
European economic community, we are on of the main countries, for
supporting
it, they’re bringing in, what is it, a further eight, nine, ten,
countries, who
are the poor relations of Europe, are they going to be swilling the
coffers,
no, they’re going to be taking it out of us, and out of Germany and out
of
France, we are going to be supporting them, is that right, if Russia
comes in,
is that right, I’m mean it’s virtually a bankrupt country, it’s got
huge
reserves, it’s got wonderful soil, wonderful land, huge depths of, of,
of, of
soil but they don’t produce anything, what are they contributing, don’t
know
8.100.
EM: Okay, please have some water and then
I’ll, going to
move on
8.101.
CL: You want to go back to that one actually,
umm, the
figures they’re of, I can’t, can’t be bothered to find them
8.102.
EM: No, don’t worry, don’t worry, we’re doing
well, what
role do you think supermarkets have to play in the current crisis, in
British farming
8.103.
CL: I think supermarkets, are a two edge
weapon, I mean,
this is, is supermarkets and shopping malls, in, in, in the States and
in other
countries, umm, is, umm, the way, that, that, um, it, it well, it must
be the
way, that the British public wanted it to go, umm, because otherwise
they
wouldn’t have succeeded, umm, they have succeeded because you can’t
park your
town, your car in a town, umm, you can drive to a supermarket, which is
usually
on the edge of the town, or certainly you can get a bus to a
supermarket on the
edge of the town, umm, you can walk in, everything is there, it’s all
the same
temperature, you haven’t got to go from pillar to post, umm, going from
the
butcher to the baker to the candlestick maker and back again, that all,
it’s
all under one roof, umm, if the price’s are readily available, umm, you
can go
from one to another, if you don’t like one, you can go to another, umm,
you
aren’t forced to shop in the supermarket, personally I think they’re
hell, umm,
but luckily, I, I don’t have to go into one very often
8.104.
EM: How have they affected your farming life
8.105.
CL: I don’t think they’ve affected our
farming life most
awfully, and, and a great deal, I don’t think they’ve affected us a
great deal
because we are prime producers, now, we have specialised in producing
wheat,
barley, oil seed rapes, beans, cattle for specific markets, now take
the wheat
scene, we grow quite a lot of milling wheat, which ends up as bread, an
awful
lot of it, is exported to Morocco, to Egypt, etcetera, etcetera, now,
am I to
diversify, and
8.106.
[door shutting]
8.107.
CL: Oh, we’re on the hour, umm, tee
8.108.
CL: Am I to diversify into baking, umm,
to competing
with the supermarkets or, the big baking companies, which, which are
there, the
answer is no, it’s not my expertise, umm, supermarkets have done
irreparable
good but they’re also done irreparable harm, as far as, as, as, err,
umm,
families are concerned, I’m sure that they’ve kept the cost of, of, of
production, err the cost of food, staple diet of food they’ve kept that
down,
umm, if people felt that the little Pakistani shop on the corner, which
has
it’s great uses, sadly, they are often usually, umm, that much more
expensive,
so if it’s, if where looking for straight, keeping the cost down,
giving the
British public, a wide choice of, I’m terrified, there’s a bid going on
a the
moment, that the supermarkets are going to land up in two or three
hands, and
then the price will be hyped-up, then look-out, what do I think happens
then,
you go and buy that supermarkets shares, and you become a large
shareholder in
Marks and Spencer or Sainsbury’s or Tesco’s or whatever it is, umm, but
don’t
try and compete against them, I know they’ve screwed the price down,
but this
is what traders have done all the way through, go and try becoming umm,
umm a
farmers market umm, I can’t take a lorry load of wheat into, into the
local
town and say, come and buy my fresh wheat, err, straight from the farm,
umm,
because people don’t want a lorry load of wheat, umm, if they want
flour, they
want it in thirteen kilogramme packs, umm, to bake themselves in a
bread
machine, or, or , or whatever, umm, and it’s no use my taking a cow in
saying,
here you are, buy your rump steak on the hoof and what don’t want to
do, feed
to your dogs, because people can’t deal with that, so it’s horses for
courses,
umm, umm, umm, the diversification, the subsides and umm, the
supermarkets all
are beyond my comprehension and my ken
8.109.
EM: So where does your, where does your food,
how does
your food get to, the, to the public as it were, how does your, what is
the
8.110.
CL: We sell, we sell to merchants, we sell to
corn
merchants, umm, who are, in effect brokers
8.111.
EM: You don’t deal directly with supermarkets
at all
8.112.
CL: We don’t, I don’t deal with supermarkets
at all
8.113.
EM: So you haven’t got
8.114.
CL: I can be part of a chain, which can,
through farmers
buying groups, and, or farmers selling groups, umm, in this instance
selling
groups, umm, which are, quality assured, err, and they have
certificates on, on
the walls, that we, we are part of the schemes, umm, which means that
we can
sell to, but they are brokers, and they umm, will, will, in turn sell
their produce
to umm, slaughterhouses in, in, in the livestock section, who have
contracts
for, very, very narrow specifications, to supermarkets
8.115.
EM: So the gridlock that Tony Blair spoke of,
that
supermarkets have many farmers in, hasn’t, you don’t feel too aversely
affected
by
8.116.
CL: I can go, I, I can go and sell to umm,
what they
call the family butcher, be it in Oxford market, or be it in, in, in
the local
town, or whatever, and umm, many towns you can find that there is a
family
butcher, almost opposite the supermarket, you can ask the people why
they go
into the supermarket, because it’s cheaper, why do you go to the family
butcher, because it’s better, now, we can’t dictate, you, thou, shall
go to, or
thou shan’t go to, because it’s freedom of choice and it’s exactly the
same as,
as, as the organic argument, umm, somebody will say organic is much
better,
this hasn’t been proved, you can sell organic, in, in, in umm
Belgravia, you
can sell organic in Brighton, but you can’t sell organic in Barnsley,
and, and
parts of Birmingham and, and, and other places beginning with B,
because as I
said earlier on, the, the, there on, almost, on subsistence levels
8.117.
EM: Now on that subject, you are one of the
few, I
think, farmers in Britain that has tried out GM
8.118.
CL: Hmm
8.119.
EM: What has your experience been of that and
what made
you opt to do that
8.120.
CL: Umm I opted to do this, because umm, it,
it, it is a
question that needs answering, umm, I did quite a lot of research into
it, umm,
and genetically modified materials have been growing world-wide on a
commercial
scale umm, particularly in America, Canada, Australia and now, huge
quantities
in China, umm, and they, and I mean they, the powers that be, have put
down the
argument that, umm, it is going to do no harm to the environment, in
fact I’m
now of an opinion having grown genetically modified crops, umm, now
for, we’re
in our third year, only on a trial basis, umm, that in fact it will do
the
environment good, umm, we were told that umm, we’d have Frankenstein
foods,
we’re going to produce children with two heads and they were going to
do this,
and they were going to do all sorts of ghastly thinks, umm by the
scaremongers,
umm, and people really had no evidence to, to say the things that they
said,
the scientific evidence err, and I’m not a scientist, but I have talked
to a
number of eminent people, and umm, the most important is, is the
professor
Christopher Leaver in, in the science park in Oxford, umm, who is a
very great
man, umm, well qualified, umm, and umm, he is come, as, a, a, majority
of
scientists have come to the err, conclusion that, as far as the world
is
concerned, it can do nothing but good, umm, I think the Government
took, umm,
an over cautious stance on this, but the Government does take a awf,
an, an, an
over cautious stand on most thinks to do with food, umm
8.121.
EM: What, what did you actually grow, was it
oil
8.122.
CL: We grow oil seed rape and maize, umm, and
this was
as I say done under very close supervision of umm, an independent
Government
appointed board, umm, and everything that we did was carefully
monitored by an
independent scientists at Rothampstead experimental station, err, and
you
couldn’t really sneeze near the plot without, umm, having to warned,
umm, an
scientist first, umm
8.123.
EM: What hectarage did you put under
8.124.
CL: We, we did, they were very small trials,
they were
normally five hectares, most, at max, umm, in each crop, and umm, it
was
monitored to the extent that the Government, umm, had to announce where
the
sites were, so the public knew, and umm, it had to be, umm, I use the
word
kosher but it had to be transparency was the nature of the business,
umm, so
everybody knew where they where, and we have had fanatics have been in
and
trashed one, two, umm, two crops they’ve trashed, but one they missed
completely and got off target, umm, and umm, also succeeded in trashing
and
acreage of, of something that was not, nothing to do with the trial at
all,
umm, this is what I, I, I found simply alarming because umm, it is, it
is, I
can tolerate suffragettes umm, I can tolerate peace movements, but when
a trial
is being conducted then let this trial go through and let the
scientists then
be the judge and the jury and we then become the executioners or the
public
does, umm
8.125.
EM: When you say it was trashed by fanatics,
does that
mean in the middle of the night
8.126.
CL: Yeah
8.127.
EM: People came in and
8.128.
CL: Yup, yup
8.129.
EM: And what, what was your reaction to that
then
8.130.
CL: I was sad, umm, to say that I was bloody
angry umm,
would have been an over, over, over reaction, no, I was sad, umm, umm,
umm,
umm, because I think this is, is linked back to the fear syndrome,
where does
the fear syndrome come from, err, it’s whipped up, umm, umm, through a
certain
hatred, umm, and it, it, it reminded me of, of, the, the, I’ll go back
a stage,
when it was announced that we were going to grow these, one of, of the
organisations umm, organised a meeting in the village, having put
everything,
err, having put leaflets through letter boxes with a lot of half
truths, saying
that these crops were going to be grown on their doorstep, and that
they should
object, so a meeting was organised err, in the village hall, err, for
the
people about which we’ve spoken, who’ve moved into country areas, who
don’t
really haven’t given it a great deal of think, err, and, and there was
white
anger, umm, I had suddenly become the villain of the piece, having
lived here
for thirty odd years and didn’t realise that, that, that people could
be, so
totally angry, and I felt a little bit like a Jew with a shop in the
middle of
germany, in, in the late thirties, umm, and I felt that I was being
spat at,
that I was being, err, vilified, umm, for all the wrong reasons, and
they found
lots of reasons, with, this, was just one of them, the wrong reasons,
err, that
I was trying to, umm, lead the country into having umm, weeds, which
couldn’t
be controlled, umm, umm, and genetically modified this and it was going
to
spread to that, and the other, and the whole of the countryside was
going to be
ruined and we were going to be using new chemicals to, to control umm,
and we
were going to err, kill all the butterflies and the bees and the
flowers and,
they hadn’t done their homework, they had done their homework up to
umm, umm,
a, a, point of, of really raising the rabel, umm, and I had well in
excess of a
hundred letters, umm, I felt that umm, we had umm, a private security
firm,
which where keeping an eye on us because we didn’t feel terribly
secure, umm
8.131.
EM: Which you had to pay out of your own
pocket
8.132.
CL: No, no, no, no, no, no this was all taken
care of
by, by, by, basically it was Government oriented but the police were
notified
and the, the, we, we don’t, err, that, that was all taken care of, and
we were
warned that this was going to happen umm, the road is just out there, I
had
eggs thrown over the wall at the windows, fine, you know, it didn’t
matter,
children have grown up and gone, we can all look after ourselves, umm,
but umm,
Nicolas who is, is my partner, umm, in umm, farm partner, umm, has got
a, umm,
umm, a wife who’s a doctor umm, and three small children, do you want
to turn
it off
8.133.
EM: Yeah, let’s turn it off
8.134.
EM: I’ll just explain, we’ve just had to move
into a
different room because, umm, Mr Lewis’s Secretary has come in to do
some work,
so we’re in a different room now, so we’re decided as we were mid the
GM
discussion we going to start again fresh and use either material but,
at least
cover all the ground of, of the GM discussion now, and I might actually
start
by asking you, you mentioned earlier, that, no, I’m, no, I’m not
actually, no,
no, I’m not actually, I’m going to ask you that later, err, I was going
to say,
you are one of the farmers in Britain
8.135.
CL: Umm
8.136.
EM: Of only a handful who decided to, go in
for GM
trials, what made you come to that decision and where you at all wary
yourself
to begin with
8.137.
CL: Yes, I think in any, anything that’s new,
they’re,
there are three classes of people, one that are totally anti, one,
those are,
are with the big question mark on anything like this, and those that,
because
scientists say so, umm, accept it, umm, I fell definitely in the middle
category, I wanted to know, umm, and if you’re dealing with people who
cannot
accept and there are people around, that the world is round, umm, that
it is
not round, that, that, that the world is, is, is flat, umm, there’s
nothing you
or I can persuade people that the world is actually round when they
thin it’s
flat, and those that of the umm, two organisations umm, Greenpeace and
Friends
of the Earth, umm, who just cannot accept that, there’s, umm, anything
about
genetically modified material about genetically modified material that
could
possibly be good, or possibly could be anything other than evil, umm,
I’m
afraid that I loose patience, because I, I just cannot accept that the
world is
flat, when we know it is round, and that is there argument, umm, I
wanted to
see on the ground, I want to see what the benefits where, what the
scientists
said, umm, whether it was correct, and umm, I’m, I’m particularly
worried about
certain chemicals which were using in British agriculture or world
agriculture,
which are detrimental to life, err and life gone to, organic life, in,
in, in
the organisms in the soil, umm, and umm, what I saw, the benefits that
they
were bringing to, umm, umm, the countryside as a whole, were that they
would,
long term, do away with the soil acting chemicals, which are the ones
that
really are, destroying the soil, umm, be it the black grass killers,
which are,
are, we use in huge quantities in this country, and or simazines
atrazines err,
which are residuals in maize, which, as I’ll explain in a minute umm,
are
getting into the water courses, they, inevitably going to get into the
water
courses, because we are using, far too much of them, and if there’s an
alternative, I want to know from these bodies, Friends of the Earth and
Greenpeace, umm, you can’t play this both ways, you’ve either got play,
if
there is some risk, of genetically modified materials, which I don’t
personally
think there is, umm, does that out weigh, or do, does the, use of, of,
of
chemicals out weigh the genetically modified thing, it is, it is a
simple as
that, umm, the very nature of these trials is that, the company that is
doing
the work, that is financing the work, which is umm, a well known
chemical
company, umm, puts out, they do all the, the, the leg work, they select
the
field and then they put it over to a Government department, who then
come and
check it, and they then divide the field in to two, now it’s quite
impossible
to divide a field into two so it’s absolutely identical, umm, it isn’t
like
splitting a boy in half and even if you split a body in half, you’d
find the
heart’s on one side and not on the other half, but it, it is as near,
as they
can do it, the Government scientists come out, they look at the field
and say,
we will split this fifty, fifty, and we will split it, north to south
or east
to west or whatever they think is, gives you, the nearest think from
the ecology
point of view, i.e. if there’s woods on two sides, they’ll split it so
the wood
is, so they can monitor umm, everything that is going on, and they have
scientists of, of different disciplines that come out, umm, some of
them are
botanists, some of them are zoologists, some of them are interest in,
in, in
micro-bugs, some of them are interested in caribs, which are the
beetles, umm,
others are interested only in earth worms and err, over the last three
years,
umm, I have learnt and enormous amount umm, of these young people who
are,
mostly in their twenties are, are, umm, graduates in there varying
disciplines,
and umm, they of course are not prepared to say at this stage whether
they
think GM is right or wrong, but they were like myself, interested in
getting a
result, and getting the truth
8.138.
EM: Where you approached and asked if you
would do the
GM trial or did you offer yourself out of interest
8.139.
CL: Umm, I was, umm, one of the Council
members of the
Royal Agricultural Society of England, and the Royal Agricultural
Society of
England were asked to find volunteers from various parts of the
country, and
umm, I put my name forward and I was actually selected to, umm, to, to
do trial
work, and umm, jolly pleased I was, that umm, umm, because I was
selected
because I learnt an enormous amount, and met a lot of very nice and
interesting
people as a result of it
8.140.
EM: And do, you, do you get paid for the use
of the
land, more than you might, is there a premium on, I think you’ve going
to have
to get rid of the couple
8.141.
CL: Dam this, umm, here look, get out, look,
Willica,
be, get on, umm
8.142.
EM: Hang on, don’t answer until you’re
sitting down,
because, it won’t be on mic
8.143.
CL: We are paid an agreed rate before we
start growing
the crop, umm, which is, is, considerably more, than we would be paid
for the
crop that we’re growing anyway, when you start taking into account the
number
of people that you’re responsible to, err, and the hassle that one’s
put to,
err, and times that by a normal working man’s life, it breaks about
even, umm,
in one instance I think that umm, that I lost bloodily, and err, in
another
instance I gained considerably, so
8.144.
EM: On one of the crops do you mean
8.145.
CL: On one of the crops, yes
8.146.
EM: The crop isn’t then sold at all, it’s all
just
analysis
8.147.
CL: The crop is then taken, err, in the, in
the case of
oil seed rape it is combined, under supervision, err, it is put into
large bags
which are sealed, sealed with a, a, umm, a proper sealer, and it is
then taken
by lorry, a sealed lorry to umm, an incinerator, which in this instance
was
somewhere off the coast of Kent, err, and it is destroyed, so nothing
reaches
the food chain, which if you think about it is pretty ridiculous,
because umm,
over twenty percent of the soya which comes into this country is
genetically
modified, umm, and this, in fact probably the oil seed crop will have
gone into
making aeroplane engines or industrial plastics or whatever it could
have been
diverted into, and that is what I call sad, but this is the way that
the
Government wanted, and as they were paying me to do this, that’s,
that’s the
way it went, the maize crop that we grow, umm, they take the whole of
the crop
that is genetically modified and it is chopped up, put in a muck heap
and
spread again, under Government supervision, err, and ploughed in, so
not one
grain of it, goes to be feed to cattle, the nub of the effect as I see
it, as,
as I went in with the scientists, because they come on average of once
every
two to three weeks depending on the growing season, on what was going
on, or
whatever, err, and they have free access to, to, to the crop and one
resigns to
the fact that they can appear when they like, that they, I went in with
one lot
of scientists on a really lovely hot, umm, late summers day, and we
crouched in
the, the genetically modified umm, side, which had been sprayed with,
Roundup,
which you can buy umm, across the country in, in, in any umm, garden
store,
umm, and the principle of that is, that as that hits the weed surface,
it is an
innate substance therefore there’s no residual in it at all, the other
side,
the control is done conventionally, and I say that with feeling,
because atrazine
is an approved chemical for control of weeds in umm, certain crops,
and, and,
umm, maize is one, err that atrazine kills everything, except the
actual maize,
so on the GM side, there was quite a considerable re-growth of weeds
and
although the weeds, they were, something I could live with from a
farming point
of view, but the bees were coming into the crop, the insects were
coming into
the crop where there is, umm, a blank space, there were, err, umm,
birds were
in the crop, umm, we noted a, umm, a cubby of partridges which were
feeding on
the grasses in the canopy of, umm, the maize, on the normal side,
conventional
as it’s called, where the atrazine was, you could see right from one
end of the
field to the other, between the rows, of, of, maize because there
wasn’t a,
umm, a single thing growing and it, it was dead, it was dead of, of
there was
no beetles, there were no birds, there were no insects, umm, and that
to me,
was, was, was, the turning point, when I said to myself, we’ve got to
go for
this, as a country, we’re got to go for it, because it is, as far as
the
environment concerned, it is doing more good than conventional farming
as we
see it, and I’m not talking about organic farming, or, or, or anything
as
specialised as that
8.148.
EM: You had already been, you’d grown oil
seed rape,
you, you had many years, previous experience with oil seed rape grown
in the
conventional way
8.149.
CL: Yeah, and my own
8.150.
EM: So you’d seen, the experiences of that
side of the
field, as it were, years before, so that in a way wasn’t any news to
you, it
was only, is that right, that you’d seen
8.151.
CL: But until you see something, literally
done to a
line, a spray mark down a field and you can walk in, a matter of five
yards,
from one thing to another, umm, one side to another, err, you don’t err
appreciate it, umm, it was, as, as, as black and white
8.152.
EM: So was there ever a time, when you saw
the oil seed
rape, like maybe in your earlier days farming, the conven, the so
called
conventional oil seed rape growing with, birds and bees, as it were
8.153.
CL: Well, you don’t think of it in that way,
I mean,
until, you’re, you’re, you’re faced with, with, umm, an alternative,
umm, and,
you, your eyes aren’t, aren’t open to something until a scientist as
such,
points it out, and, it’s only when, umm, you are faced with something,
like a,
a medical problem, the doctor says, well look at this, had you thought
if you
ate so and so, or did so and so, that effect would be, you don’t think
about
it, you just carry on, in your own sweet way, err, I mean we’re all
like
children
8.154.
EM: And when you declared that you were going
to start
the GM trial what was the reaction of the farmers, the local farmers in
your
area, how did they respond to this
8.155.
CL: Fortunately the sites we choose in year
one were
sufficiently far away, umm, from other farmers, i.e. we were, could do
it all
on our own land, with, with enormous distances, away from others, and
we picked
these sites, or I submitted these sites, umm, because I was aware that
there
might be, umm, umm a controversy, umm, we had complaints from
neighbours on the
maize front, that, umm, that somebody was growing organic miles four
miles away
and they said that this would remove umm, their organic status, and
that their
umm, umm, that, that they could have seeds or pollen could be wafted
over this
distance and it could etcetera, well the maize breeders that I’ve
visited in
various parts of the world say that it, it’s, umm, very difficult to
get maize
to pollinate over ten yards, it seems rather strange that they should
be
worrying about pollination over three and four miles, umm, but we had a
set of
guidelines, which were very carefully laid out by the Government
independent
body, and we were well within those parameters, therefore, I felt my
conscious
was clear, and I think that to give them their due, the opposition, and
I put
them as opposition that they have conceded that of course it made no
difference
to either their sales or their organic status, or their, umm, umm,
whatever,
but talk to the Soil Association and talk to err, the people that we
mentioned
earlier, umm, they would say that, that, that I flouted all the rules
of, of,
of umm, of nature and have umm, good neighbourliness and goodness knows
what
else
8.156.
EM: Did you feel a responsibility to your
neighbouring
farmers, both organic and non-organic, to tell them what you’re growing
8.157.
CL: I did and I did tell them, yes, and I
disgusted it
with them in, in every instance, umm, of the immediate neighbours, and
umm,
most of them said good on you, we’ll coming to watch and see, and, and
we’ve
had open days and open evenings and farm walks and umm, umm, I think
that,
that, the professional growers, umm, other then a couple of complete
cranks,
err, in the district, not just neighbours, but in the district, and
they came
from as far on way on, that particular evening I’m thinking of, as far
away as
Wallingford, and Chipping Norton and the other side of Swindon, so I
mean it’s,
it’s, it’s a pretty big area, umm, because they were genuinely
interested and
wanted to see and, and, wanted to learn, and I had a scientist on, on
tap, and,
and the questions, umm from, from a number were err, umm, umm pretty
barbed and
pretty heated, but umm, I think that, that the heat was taken out of
it, and
err, they accepted, that I kept coming back and, and so did the
scientists who
I had on tap, but, a third of the world is umm, starving, that the
agricultural
land, is, is, is, is getting less, umm, due to buildings, due to
goodness knows
what, forests are being cut down, umm, we are, we’ve got to, we’ve got
eighty
million by, in twenty five years, eighty million population, umm, we
can’t go
on, umm, a large section of the world does not accept the, the Chinese
birth
control methods are, are, right, it’s, just a very simple good house
keeping
argument I think
8.158.
EM: Earlier in the interview, you mentioned
that
Zimbabwe for instance would never say no to a, as they, you know a
hungry
nation at the moment, to a, to a, tonne load of GM crops, though there
were
instances last year of African states
8.159.
CL: There were
8.160.
EM: Who rejected GM crops, what about that
8.161.
CL: I thought that the politicians were
behaving as, as,
as a number of African politicians are known to behave umm, they’re
pretty
ruthless, umm, what are their ulterior motives, umm, are they trying to
reduce
the size of the population, are they trying to reduce the size, of, of
the
opposition err, within their countries, umm, it just seems strange,
when, when,
the more sophisticated scientific nations, and let’s face it the
Americans are
absolutely scared to death of, of, of anything that might be
detrimental to
their health, they’re more health conscious than any other country and
they can
afford to be, they’re the richest nation in the world, umm, the, none
of these
questions about genetically modified foods, umm, raise their ugly heads
in the
states, umm, it is past by the USDA, the Department of Agriculture,
USDH, the
Department of Health, umm, once it gets that stamp we go for it, umm,
who are
we, or who are, err, the cranks of this country to say that, that is
wrong, if
for personal choice you wish, not to eat any particular thing, or to
drink any
particularly thing, that’s fine by me, I don’t mind that, but I don’t
think you
want to go round scaremongering and, and, putting your, dictating this
to, to,
superimposing your own will onto others
8.162.
EM: Though, that, what you just mentioned
about the
choice, a lot of the issue is about the labelling, and if there isn’t
labelling
then people don’t know how to choose between a GM and a non-GM product
8.163.
CL: Umm, there’s a lot of lies about this
too, all false
innuendoes, err, when this started, umm, we had the grand children to
stay and
there was a packet of Corn Flakes, the well known brand of cornflakes
were on
the, if you have any inform, umm, umm, umm, wish any information about
this,
umm please contact us on www dot, whatever it was on the website, and I
couldn’t resist and I wrote saying I’m very interested to know, what is
your
company’s policy regarding genetically modified food stuffs, and I got
a reply
back within hours, umm, that the, err, company policy is that we, will
not use
genetically modified umm, materials, umm, and that we source all our
maize umm,
from the Argentine, which does not use GM products, I had in front of
me, arrived
the week before, umm, the world food journal, which said that
thirty-three
percent of the maize grown in the Argentine was genetically modified,
so I
copied this out and sent it back to umm, the respondent umm, who signed
her
name umm, and umm, I never had a, err, an answer, so I said with
reference to
my fax, err my email of so and so, and so and so, I still haven’t had
an
answer, no I mean, err, err, you know it’s, we can all play these
games, but we
all want scientific evidence, take any label, and look at the flavours
and the
additives, that are, are, are put on any of these foodstuffs, are they
healthy,
what are they, not, half the times it’s a serious of numbers, we don’t
know
what the hell they are, and we wonder whether they in fact know what
the hell
they are, are they good for us, are they bad for us, what are the
preservatives, that were, that our food are, are flooded with
8.164.
EM: If the GM, if they, if it had turned out
to be GM
cornflakes, let’s say, would you have eaten them with impunity
8.165.
CL: Yeah, because I know, I know that I’ve
eaten,
genetically modified thinks in other parts of the world and I’d almost
goes as
far to umm, say that umm, umm, I would prefer to try and prefer to die
happy
that I’ve tried, umm, I’d rather do that, a pot of honey, when a pot of
honey
arrives on your table, and you look at the label carefully, and I had a
pot of
organic honey, which it said was the produce of many countries, which
most
honey has on the label, produce of many honey, countries, are all these
countries guarantying that their bees have only gone to organic plants,
I mean,
it, it, it, it, it’s glib talking
8.166.
EM: But then can’t we t, turn that around and
say that
for your GM trials those bees are, are, you know, enjoying themselves
on your
GM maize crops or GM oil seed rape crop and then going over to
8.167.
CL: Possible, I had a bee keeper when I
started who used
to keep his bees here, to pollinate the, in the oil seed rape and, and,
and the
fruit trees and whatever locally, he came down in a storm of protest
and
removed his hives, because he said that I was going to remove his hives
because
he said that he was going to remove his trade and no body was going to
buy his
honey because he had bees in, in, in this locality, umm, where’s your
proof,
that it’s going to be detrimental, ah, but where’s your proof that it’s
not,
but we can’t, this is like the world and Columbus setting sale, if the
world is
flat, he doesn’t come back, the people that are eating his honey, one
assumes,
are still alive, cause I continue to buy his honey in vast quantities,
hoping
that he wouldn’t be able to sell it to anybody else because I liked his
honey
8.168.
EM: So you feel it was a necessary, things
like him,
your bee keeper, having to move because of the GM trial were a
necessary evil,
in order to find out about GM
8.169.
CL: Yeah, I don’t think he had to, I mean he
was told
that all his bees would die, and, and, and that they wouldn’t produce
any honey
and they wouldn’t mutate and they wouldn’t breed and they do what other
bees
do, umm, err, a third of the honey we’ve got in this country comes from
Canada,
Canada is, is, is, is wall to wall genetically modified crops, they
still
produce honey, we still continue to sell it and buy it in supermarkets
and probably
not as Canadian GM honey, but honey produced from many countries, so
8.170.
EM: But do you feel the consumer should have
a right to
know that it is Canadian GM honey, or Canadian GM honey mixed with
8.171.
CL: No, because I personally don’t think the
GM thing is
an issue, I think there are far more important issues regarding food
and, and,
umm, our way of life, and umm, err, lack of exercise, umm, umm,
obesity, umm,
call it what you like, you know, you could go on for ever, umm, if you
buy,
umm, umm, a ham, a McDonalds whatever it is, it doesn’t say at the
bottom, eat
one, but eat two at your peril but that is probably a greater risk
than, than,
eating err, a very healthy food, which is, is, honey, despite the fact
that
it’s got a GM content in it, which is, I would put it at, but I don’t
know, so
it’s no point in my putting it at a million to one risk, I, I, I don’t
know,
the scientist that there’s zero risk, no scientist will say that
there’s zero
risk in eating two hamburgers or whatever they’re called, umm, when one
should
be more than enough for you
8.172.
EM: Have you heard the case of Percy
Schmeiser in Canada
8.173.
CL: I’ve got the thing chapter and verse,
I’ve got the
umm, the Percy Schmeiser, umm, case, umm, and I’ve got the trial
report, err
and as the trial report is actual transcript from the trial and what
was
purported to be, umm, stated in court, he freely admitted that he had
actually
kept the seed himself, and I, I can go and get it for you and then I
can read
from you, but I, I
8.174.
EM: I tell you, I’ll just ask you from the
story as I
know it
8.175.
CL: Yeah
8.176.
EM: Which is that he was not an organic
farmer but a
seed saver over many years of canola
8.177.
CL: Yeah
8.178.
EM: And umm, his neighbouring farmer opted to
do GM canola
and some of that in a windstorm, blow over into his farm, just less
than ten
percent of his farm, but Monsanto accused him of growing GM, of, of
growing
their crop and they should, it should belong to them, and he lost in
court,
because patent law, err, that however the crop got there, even if it’s
by
nature, by wind, that crop must belong to Monsanto, that’s the story as
I know
it
8.179.
CL: Umm, I don’t think that is, is, is, is
quite right,
and it’s a long time ago but I remember say, being perfectly satisfied
at the
time, that not everybody was telling al the truth, all the time, either
in
court or out of court, and that there was an alternative, umm,
solution, to the
thing that, that, that might just be a possibility of somebody getting
rich
quick, whether it was the man himself, the neighbour or umm, Monsanto,
or
whatever, umm, but no money changed hands did it
8.180.
EM: Yes, he’s, he’s, had to pay, over two,
hearly all
his life sayings, two hundred thousand dollars
8.181.
CL: Oh, has he said that
8.182.
EM: He’s in his seventies now
8.183.
CL: He’s not
8.184.
EM: And that, he was going to retire but he’s
had to
8.185.
CL: Because he had to hand it over to
8.186.
EM: Court proceedings, court proceedings have
cost him
8.187.
CL: Well he lost
8.188.
EM: He lost the case
8.189.
CL: He lost the case
8.190.
EM: He lost the case because of patent law
8.191.
CL: Because he, hmm
8.192.
EM: That, I mean, you know, as an onlooker
you can’t
help but feel that patent law to rule
8.193.
CL: Yeah, this, this, we
8.194.
EM: To win
8.195.
CL: I’m not talking to, to you umm, from, one
side of a
legal argument or another side of a legal argument unless I’ve
refreshed and got
the up to date thing off, I think it was the internet, umm, but it was
all sent
me via Friends of the Earth at the time, and, umm, I got the people
that I knew
to give me the other side of the story, and it wasn’t quite as it was
put out,
in, in the first instance and I don’t know, at that stage, no money had
changed
hands, but if it has since, I’m not aware of it
8.196.
EM: One of the things that he mentioned, that
had
happened to him were that umm Monsanto would drop, not just his land
but other
land, drop bombs of err Roundup and then fly over the site a few weeks
later to
see who was growing GM crops and who wasn’t, and he said would then put
a
letter through the farmers door if it seemed that they were illegally
growing,
GM crops, or however or not it had got to there land, I mean, that’s an
example
what do you feel about the tactics of organisations such as Monsanto
8.197.
CL: Umm, Monsanto is an enormous company,
umm, I feel
the tactics of, of any of these companies are umm, pretty good and
pretty straight
forward, umm, that they are looking after their shareholders, they are
answerable to an enormous number of, of, of companies, of, err,
organisations,
as a company, they are backed by shareholders as well as, in that
incident the
US Department of Agriculture, umm, I don’t think any large organisation
is
going to go dropping bombs of, of, of any one particular chemical in an
area
where you could see so patently, if you dropped a bomb over here it
would kill
all of my lawn and everybody else with that, and all my neighbours
lawns and
everybody in the district without saying, hey, something’s happened
here, what
is this, what’s killed all, all, all my lawn, all my trees, all my
shrubs
8.198.
EM: Is we, a bomb of Roundup
8.199.
CL: Yeah, that’s what you said
8.200.
EM: Yeah, yup, yup
8.201.
CL: They had dropped, I mean Roundup takes
out just
about everything, that is, is, is green, umm, in the same way as they
use
Tordon in Vietnam, which defoliated forests, and Roundup in, in a bomb
form
would, would take out everything, but in any community, it drifts
terrifically
does Roundup and you cannot spray it, I would have thought no, err,
company
that made a chemical could be so irresponsible just to drop it from the
air if
it sprays, says, that it should be sprayed diluted through, umm, an
agricultural type sprayer, at, umm eighteen inches maximum from the
ground
level, which is, is the correct height, fourteen to eighteen inches,
that they
should drop it from an aeroplane, I find this slightly Star Wars-ishy,
I don’t
think, I don’t think this would happen, I can’t comment, other than
that, I
don’t think it’s likely
8.202.
EM: Umm, the last, last think on that, on
that story is
that, apparently because of the presence of Monsanto and GM crops in
Canada
there no, there is now no possibility to grow organic canola, because
cross
contamination has been so extensive, do you think that, that’s a pity
8.203.
CL: I can’t honestly see the need to grow
organic
canola, because canola is umm, one of the crops, that if you took it,
if you
grow organic canola, and you then took canola which was, was grown
non-organically, I don’t think, and I stand to be corrected that there
is one,
any one research organisation, other then looking at, at, at the DNA,
if you
rule that out, that they couldn’t tell from analysis, from food
analysis,
t’other from which, and if there’s no, if they can’t tell t’other from
which
there’s a, and, and it is established that, umm, genetically modified
is not
detrimental to human, animal or plant health, unless applied
specifically in
any specific instance, what is the argument about, I, I, I don’t know
8.204.
EM: I want to come back to, more about
organic in a bit
but one last thought on that, is, err, umm, another comment actually
that he
said in his testimony, Percy Schmeiser was that all the promises, his,
his
neighbouring farmers who had experienced GM, the promises that Monsanto
had
made to them, non of them were meet, in as much as, he said,
super-weeds were
rife in their, the GM canola
8.205.
CL: How come then that it’s expanded at the
rate of
twenty five per cent, year on year, since when ever this case was,
which I
think was 1999, that there has been this dramatic increase in,
genetically
modified foods
8.206.
EM: Possibly because of Monsanto’s bullying
tactics,
possibly, not really giving the farmers a choice
8.207.
CL: I don’t think, no, I, I, I, yes, I, I,
let’s get
back to concepts, this is rather like saying, if you find that, that,
British
supermarkets, umm, have, have taken year on year, a twenty, twenty five
percent
increase in, in, in sales, umm, to say that, that is, is supermarket
bullying
tactics to the public, umm, is, to me, is a, is a bit far fetched, umm,
canola
is one of the three big crops in the, in, in, in Canada, canola is
marketed,
through a broker, not through Monsanto, Monsanto as far as I’m aware,
unless
they’ve umm, inadvertently bought shares into brokers, but it, it, it
if you
look at, then you can see the equivalent of Companies House in, in
America, you
can see what their terms of trading are, then, they’re not trading,
they are
chemical suppliers, and I’d be very surprised if they had invested into
the
brokers and, and umm, this is all sort of, MI5 stuff now, umm, I, I
don’t
accept that, full-stop, that they have, have got at farmers and told
what they
can grow and what they can’t grow, farmers, world wide seem to be up
against
it, if they can see something, which complies with the laws and the
rules, and
they’re growing a crop, err, for sale, and it, it as I say complies
with the
law or the rules, they’re going to go for it if they can make
themselves more
money, err, and if they’re not ruining the soil or, or doesn’t mean
removing
all the hedges or err, doing all the other ghastly things that, that
farmers
have accused of been doing, rape of the land, umm, and to that end I
can give
you all sorts of things to, to read, to prove, to back-up what I’m
saying, but
that’s only from where I sit
8.208.
EM: And when you had the instance, several
instances of
people coming and pulling up the crop, and destroying it, did you try
to
prosecute, what was your, what did you do in reaction to it
8.209.
CL: I couldn’t prosecute cause they didn’t
know, who,
where they where, or whence they’d come, and, and, that wasn’t umm, any
more
than you can prosecute who comes in and burns your barn down, or lets
your
cattle out, umm, I mean, in two instances I had, umm, cattle removed,
umm, out
of grass and, and, and umm actually pushed into a field of oil seed
rape which
contained genetically modified material, umm, how can you prosecute
somebody
who lets your cattle out in the night, err, and you find your cattle in
my
instance, one instance, umm, two miles down the, the bottom of the
Thames,
where they’d just kept going, umm, you don’t find, the perpetrators,
so, so, so
one doesn’t prosecute, umm, if one found and caught somebody red handed
from,
from so doing, umm, it would be, difficult to prosecute them because
the last
lot, that, that were prosecuted, somewhere up in Warwickshire, umm,
appeared in
court and, and they got away with it, because they said that this was
their
right and responsibility for so doing, this is a legal matter, it’s not
for me
to say
8.210.
EM: So just to round-up, the, the GM
discussion, what do
you, there seems to be, still, a lot of public unease about GM, whether
or not
it’s informed or mis-informed in your view, what do you feel is going
to be the
future of, of GM in this country
8.211.
CL: You ask, what is going to be the future
in this
country, umm, the figures speak for themselves, world-wide, it is
accepted, if
we fail to accept what is the norm, umm, British agriculture’s going to
loose
another trick, and we are going to, slip back further, umm, if we were
told,
that we weren’t able to use, umm, artificially produced nitrogen
fertiliser
which is accepted worldwide, umm, we’d be put at a further
disadvantage, umm,
if the British public was told that, umm, global warming was due umm,
petrol
products used on the roads, and umm, that they would be denied petrol,
and
therefore denied almost, all independent means of, of, of transport,
they’d be
a public out-cry, umm, I personally think, that Europe will, within the
next
five years, accept genetically modified crops and, that, that labelling
it’ll
be, it’ll go into, the, the great mass of foods, umm, and it won’t be,
umm, it
wont, it just wont be noticed, it, it, it won’t be commented on, umm,
in the
same way as I say, as flavours in all the foodstuffs that we, we, we,
nay, if
you start looking into things, look what ice-cream is made of, umm, all
the
filthy things that are put into ice cream, umm, ghastly things that,
are, are
put in, umm, there are all sort of feeding stuffs which, which we feed
to, look
at the preservatives in baby foods for instance, I mean, it, it, it,
yet we’re
still here, we’re all looking quite bonny
8.212.
EM: So it doesn’t
8.213.
CL: It’s the other side of the whole, of
this, this,
argument is that we, as a nation, are healthier, living longer, than
we’ve ever
been, in, in the history of mankind, and, we, we are, that hence,
that’s one of
the causes of, of this vast population explosion, which you’ve got, far
fewer
infant mortality going, and you’ve got the older people, like me, are
living
much, much longer
8.214.
EM: Though in
8.215.
CL: We’re being kept healthy by basically, by
what we
put in our mouths
8.216.
EM: Though incidences, well cancer research
organisations all say that we should be very careful about what we eat
8.217.
CL: I’m sure we should
8.218.
EM: And that it is, just these kind of
preservatives and
8.219.
CL: Yeah
8.220.
EM: Additives that are cau
8.221.
CL: But nobodies yet levelled this, and I’m
very keen on
cancer research and, and, and follow it, and dare I say, even donate to
it,
umm, having had cancer myself, I know what, umm, remarkable discoveries
have
been made, umm, and, and the cures and goodness knows what, umm, but
nobody’s
yet said, pointed a finger and said, GM crops are responsible for, or,
you
should eat organic foods and nothing but, because, you will therefore
be,
naturally healthier, nobody’s yet, been able to
8.222.
EM: Though I’ve seen cancer research
organisations
definitely recommend organic foods, they’ve come out and recommended
organic
foods
8.223.
CL: They haven’t been able to give the
reasons, and if
you
8.224.
EM: Right, so for you it’s, it’s, until you,
you need
the proof, is that it, you do have concern, I mean, how concerned are
you about
preservatives and additives and
8.225.
CL: I am obviously interested in
preservatives and, and,
and whatever, I mean, umm, when you get, umm, as happened a few years
ago, that
there were, umm, concerns about, Continental, European Continental,
umm, wines,
where, contained anti-freeze, umm, one things, oh my gold, umm, thing
of the
preservatives, that, that, go on in the wine trade, and I’ve seen them
going in
and I know what they are, umm, it makes you think, doesn’t it, what
does it
make you thing, don’t drink too much wine, umm, well, we know that, we
don’t
have to do that anyway, umm, umm, all the preservatives that go into
all foods,
do concern me, but if they, where going to have to, have more, umm,
refrigerators to umm, store foods, because they haven’t got
preservatives and
that’s going to be a more greenhouse gases, question, is that good or
is that
bad, umm, umm refrigerators, freezing plants, run off electricity,
fossil
fuels, err, is that umm, umm, it’s going to put the price up, let the
people
have the choice
8.226.
EM: So, just last word on GM, is your opinion
then, that
until there is proof that it is detrimental, you will continue, you
feel it, it
does not cause harm
8.227.
CL: I personally, umm, umm, sold on the fact
that GM is
good, umm, that it is going to be good for humanity, it’s going to be
good for
the environment, and it’s going to be introduced more and more, and
there are
going to be things that are genetically modified, and I, coming back
right back
to square one, what is genetically modified, can you look at any plant
and say
that it hasn’t got some sort of cross, what is cross breeding, what is
a rose,
what is a hybrid D, cross breeding any type of breeding is, the hand of
man,
has gone into it, err, why are we, as, as, we are, I mean, it is, not
by, by,
by chance, by accident, a lot of it is by design, of human beings
8.228.
EM: Though what was new about GM, was that
the cross
breeding wasn’t just in, through plants, there were animals such as fish
8.229.
CL: Oh, the, the
8.230.
EM: Fish were used
8.231.
CL: The bloater was used, to, to, create the
tomato,
umm, just about every tomato that comes out of, of, Spain, now, is the
produce
of, of, of a genetically modified materials, you see, that’s, that, it,
it’s
died down, I mean the tomatoes that arrive are fresh, taste, not
covered in disease,
not all rotting, to your advantage and not mine
8.232.
EM: Though it is a different type of cross
breading
isn’t it for, I mean, you say for centuries we’ve been cross breeding,
but this
is cross breeding, using
8.233.
CL: Come back to my thing
8.234.
EM: Using non-plant
8.235.
CL: Put, put, put two, umm, plants down side
by side,
give them to the scientist, and say analyse them, show me what is in
this, that
is, detrimental to my health, and I won’t eat the bloody thing, as long
as it
isn’t going to be detrimental to health, isn’t life too short to worry
about
this, if it’s not actually our concern, I mean there are scientists
there, who
far clever than even, dare I say it than you, umm, who tell us, that it
is, it
is safe, and you’ve got to accept things are safe
8.236.
EM: And do we know that
8.237.
CL: We can’t accept AK-47 in Birmingham are
safe, umm,
umm, you know, there are, bigger worries in this bloody world as far as
I’m
concerned, than whether GM is safe, life’s too short, let’s get on and
enjoy it
and eat and live, thank the almighty that there are foods there, for
use to
eat, and that we’ve not in the Zimbabwe situation
8.238.
EM: Look at the time, okay, now, umm, do we
want to, are
you happy to continue a little bit more, how’s your stomach
8.239.
CL: I mean, if it keeps on, we, we, we almost
had my
lunch, yes, you’ve missed your two o’clock bus
8.240.
EM: I’ve missed my two o’clock so it’s going
to be three
o’clock or the two thirty seven
8.241.
CL: Two thirty seven where, yeah
8.242.
EM: That’s the local one, yeah
8.243.
CL: Okay
8.244.
EM: But I don’t mind if I get the three
o’clock
8.245.
CL: Yeah
8.246.
EM: Umm, how, how much time
8.247.
CL: Another sandwich, quick
8.248.
EM: Okay, do you want
8.249.
CL: Quick, we eat the sandwich
8.250.
EM: We’ve had another break and I’m now go to
ask Mr
Lewis, what his opinion is, of organic farming
8.251.
CL: My opinion of organic farming in, it is,
lovely, as
far as it goes, umm, I’ve stated more than once today, that the world
is over
populated, with present modern science, hmm, hmm, that the world’s
surface,
could not, begin to feed the existing population, let alone the
forecast
population, for the year 2050, which I think, from memory is eighty
million,
umm, we live in a, a very, umm, balanced, umm, eco-structure, forests
get rain,
umm, if we cut down more forests to make more arable or pasture lands,
umm, the
world will land up like the Sahara Desert, umm, thousands of people and
you
mentioned Monsanto, have, have invested, and companies have invested,
in
techniques, which have aided, modern man to exist, umm, to go back to,
umm, subsistence
farming of organic methods, umm, just doesn’t bear thinking about, err,
we’ve
cut back in animal numbers, farm animal numbers, umm, the dairy heard
in this
country’s halved in the last ten years, we would need something like
eight to
ten times more dairy cattle, we would eight to ten times more umm, beef
cattle,
we would need twenty times more, umm, poultry, umm, in order to, umm,
to keep
the land on an equilibrium, to grow things organically, umm, we’ve cut
back as
I said from thirteen to three men, if we started composting, I love
composting
in a garden situation, on an allotment size patch, which is enough
vegetables
to grow err, for my wife and I, umm, but we’ve talking of the, millions
of
people who live in towns, who is going to do the composting for them,
how are
we going to be, how, I ask questions, how can this be done, we cannot
think of
it being, the be all and end all, no matter what the Soil Association
says, I’m
sure that they can do this at Highgrove, I know full well I can’t do it
here
8.252.
EM: Because
8.253.
CL: It’s a physical impossibility, I just
can’t do it,
umm, because of the reasons I’ve stated, I mean, the, the soil
structure will
start deteriorating as soon as I don’t use umm, artificial fertilizers,
be
they, umm, you, you can apply all sorts of trace elements and things,
but you
can’t under the Soil Association, umm, the Soil Association that you
can use as
a, a, chemical for controlling umm yellow fly or green fly on your
cabbage,
that you can wash it with Potassium whatever it is, which is soft soap,
umm,
that is, is, is, is a natural killer, I mean you can use Bordeaux
mixture,
which is, is, err, they seem to have, fired the shots, umm, to suit
themselves,
umm, nobody has yet said, that I’ve seen, that organically grown
vegetables are
better, we know they’re more expensive, but are they better
nutritionally, it
comes back to the same old thing, we are now, the average age, of
whatever it
is, has gone up by goodness knows whatever it’s gone up by, but we’re
all
living longer, if we all had organic food, and organic food was as
good, as,
as, it’s supposed to be, we’d all use, live, live, umm, seven or eight
percent
longer, which instead of the average age being seventy, it’d be seventy
seven,
do we really want an average age of population of seventy seven, I
mean, it’s,
it’s, this is, is to me it’s crazy, organic, whole organic concept I’m
afraid,
makes me angry
8.254.
EM: When you say
8.255.
CL: Because it costs more
8.256.
EM: Do we all want an average age of seventy
seven,
you’d actually rather people
8.257.
CL: I mean, I can’t see that, no, cause, I,
I, I don’t
mean quite like that, I’m being fascias, umm, if we add on, the age of
the
population, we are adding more, a greater population, to in this
country, an
over populated island, the rest of the world is getting even more over
populated, and something’s got to go, something has got to give
8.258.
EM: One of the other farmers that I’ve
interviewed, who
wasn’t and an organic farmer, umm, I just pass on this quote to see
your
reaction to it, I asked him, what do you think about organic and what
do you
think about GM, and he said, they’re both fruit cakes
8.259.
CL: Fine, umm, I suppose you could argue they
that they
are both fruit cakes, umm, you can argue, people can argue that black
is white,
umm, he, I presume was a conventional farmer, using what we call
conventional
things, which was chemicals, sprays, etc, umm, I know that DDT has been
found
over the years to be, umm, detrimental to insect life, umm, but if it
hadn’t
for umm, DDT, the fly, the tetse fly in Africa, would have reduced the
population through malaria, by some fifty per cent, now, I can think of
a lot
of people, could argue that, malaria, if, was, would have been a dam
good think
in that case, but as human suffering, that went on through malaria, and
having
seen cattle in Africa, that have been done by the tetse fly and seen
the areas
where they used, and got rid of it by pyrethrum and modern drugs, the
best know
to man at the time, the difference is, and the quality of life, was so
much
better, is that wrong, is it right, I don’t know, probably fruit and
nut case,
I don’t know
8.260.
EM: Okay, I’m now going to move away from the
GM and,
and, the organic and just ask you, who do you think, has most control
of
farming today, do you think it’s politicians, supermarkets, land owners
8.261.
CL: Who has the most control, I think they
all
contribute, they all contribute in one way or another and I don’t think
you can
say that one, have, have got sole control over it, we’ve all got
control over
our own destinies, one way and another, err, even in a semi-police
state, we,
we, we live in, therefore, agriculturally, umm, we must all have some
say, I
mean, there are fruit and nut cakes that want to getup at four o’clock
in the
morning and milk cows, three hundred and sixty four and a half days of
the
year, umm, for a loss, and that’s fine, err, I personally don’t wish to
do
that, umm, I think they are fruit and nut case, but when there’s no
milk about,
and there’s a scarcity of milk, the price will go up, as in all things,
when,
when there’s a scarcity price goes up, the fact that we’ve living in,
in, a, a
sea of plenty at the moment, we are, in this country in a sea of
plenty, I
think things will change, that will be partly the politicians,
supermarket’s
might have the smiles wiped off their faces when, umm, the public, out
there,
haven’t got the money to spend, on, food is always the first thing that
goes,
it’s not the children’s sweeties, and whatever, it’s basic food that
goes
first, it always seems to be
8.262.
EM: You mentioned, you referred earlier to
the monopoly
that supermarkets have
8.263.
CL: Mm
8.264.
EM: And you also referred, indirectly to this
situation
we’re in at the minute, where Sain, err, Safeway, various other
supermarkets
are bidding
8.265.
CL: Are bidding, yes
8.266.
EM: For Safeway, including Walmart, which
owns ASDA,
what is your opinion of that kind of monopoly of the market
8.267.
CL: Market forces will prevail won’t they,
umm, if, if
others can see a way of making a buck and, and taking some things away
from
them, they will, the umm, analogy I suppose is motor cars, umm,
motorcar
industry in this part of the world was, was, went on at Cowley, and at,
err,
umm, they weren’t good enough, they were as equivalent to a
supermarket,
producing motor cars, umm, they weren’t good enough, people went else
where,
others soon moved in, looks what’s happened
8.268.
EM: When you’ve commented on supermarkets
earlier, you,
you said that you, yourself find them hellish place to be, umm, but you
can
see, understand their convenience, where does that leave you about
local shops
that have had to close because of supermarkets
8.269.
CL: This is one of the natural, this is, is,
is one of
the natural sort of evolutions of man isn’t it, umm, it’s the natural
evolution
of the spices, umm, the strong get strong and the weak get weaker, umm,
but ask
me whether I feel the Roman Empire should have continued, the Roman
Empire
collapsed, umm, the supermarkets, if they get too big, and they get too
cocky,
people will start finding alternatives, if they get sloppy, if they get
whatever, I mean, I just don’t know what percentage of the food goes
down my
throat comes out of a supermarket, but I suppose it’s probably as much
as the
next persons, and umm, if it wasn’t any good, my wife wouldn’t
continually go
back there, umm, but when she tells me to go to, A or B or C
supermarket
outside the thing, I find a dam good excuse to say I’m feeling
frightfully ill
or I’ve got something else to do, because I physically don’t like going
and I
don’t know where everything is on the shelves, I can’t find it, I love
the old
fashioned idea of a grocers shop where you’re known when you walk in,
and the
man with a, with a, umm, a stripy apron, umm, who greets you, umm, and,
and,
you say, well I want a nice bit of cheese, what have you got, arrgh he
says, I
remember you like so and so, and produces a lovely bit of cheese for
you, or
whatever, of course one’s going to pay for that service, in the same
way as you
do for going to a bespoke tailor as oppose to getting something off,
umm, off
the shelf
8.270.
EM: Do you think of your business as
successful
8.271.
CL: At the moment, no I don’t, I don’t thing
it is
successful, but umm, I can’t see quite what one can do to make it more
successful, umm, but I have high hopes, that things are going to get
better, I
mean we’re importing so much wheat from, from, umm, the Black Sea,
we’re
importing so much meat from, from foreign parts, umm, we are, umm,
we’re being
driven down hill, umm, the pound is, is, umm, at an artificial level,
umm, it,
it isn’t that the things are not of our making, we’re almost back to
where we
came in
8.272.
EM: And would you, it’s okay, it’s okay,
we’re alright
for time, I’ve got my two last questions, it’s quarter to
8.273.
CL: You’ve got to take, ten minutes at least,
twelve
minutes to get back, three o’clock bus
8.274.
EM: Okay, so I’ve got
8.275.
CL: It’s here, the bus is here
8.276.
EM: No this one’s the way you picked me up
8.277.
CL: Yup, yup
8.278.
EM: So I’ve got two last questions
8.279.
CL: Yes
8.280.
EM: And then we’re done
8.281.
CL: You’re going to miss it, yes
8.282.
EM: Ha, ha, second to last question is, what
would you
recommend, would you recommend someone to go into, let’s say, you had a
son who
wanted to go into farming, would you recommend it to him now
8.283.
CL: Put it another way, I have, Nicholas is
here, umm
8.284.
EM: Is that your step son by the way
8.285.
CL: He’s my step son, umm, but it’s the same
thing, umm,
he, umm, he’s here, he’s very much part of the furniture and umm, if it
hadn’t
been for him, I honestly think, I would have sold up and gone, umm,
because,
there are easier ways of making a fool of one’s self than trying to
make a living
in this, because whatever I got for this etcetera and invested it
elsewhere,
I’d be able to live better than, umm, or show a better return than,
than it’s
doing now, next last question
8.286.
EM: Ha, ha, and the last question, which I do
you want
to answer with some, without speed, with some kind of consideration,
don’t
worry about my bus, do you feel that you have been a custodian of the
land
during your time on this farm
8.287.
CL: Umm, I’m not a religious man, umm, I have
no faith,
and somebody once asked me, umm, in the heat of the moment I answered,
umm,
what are you in this world for, and I said I’d like to think, this was
many
years ago, and I’ve, I’ve remembered it, before I realised what I said,
and my
words were, I wish to leave the world a better place than I found it,
umm, and
I think in many ways, I have, we are leaving the world in a better
place than,
than, than when I, when I was born, it is inherently better, for, for a
great
number of people, not everybody
8.288.
EM: What about the farms
8.289.
CL: Umm, I think Farming wise, I’ve, I’ve
maintained the
same philosophy, I think the land is in better heart, it’s better
drained, umm,
it’s growing more, it’s more productive, than it was, when I came here,
and
each of the farms that I’ve taken, are better than they were, they’re
reverting
back fast now, because there’s no money to reinvest, to maintain
buildings as
they should be maintained, to maintain, keeping the, the paint work up
together,
to keep the roofs on, umm, to maintain the land drainage, which costs
an
enormous amount of money, to maintain the roads, to maintain the
infrastructure
of the fences and the, the hedges, it is going down hill, and I think,
this is,
as I’ve said, is something the Government has got to look at, because
one can’t
fight this battle alone, and I’m very worried about the future of
England, of
England PLC, and that includes, agricultural England, leave out the
crime and
all the rest of it, but I’m very worried about, about, about which way
England
is going
8.290.
EM: Thank-you very much
8.291.
CL: Goodbye
8.292.
EM: Christoper Lewis, here ends the interview
with
Christopher Lewis, ha, ha, okay
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