Interview with David Orpwood, farmer
Notes
Interview date: 4 June 2002
Interview location: Woods Farm, Watlington,
Oxfordshire. OX9
5HD.
Interviewee: David Orpwood
Interviewer: Andrew Wood
Transcript key: AW: Andrew Wood; DO: David Orpwood
Transcript
4.0.
AW: It’s, err, Tuesday 4th June, I’m at
Wood, is
it Wood’s Farm
4.1.
DO: Woods farm
4.2.
AW: Wood Farm
4.3.
DO: Woods
4.4.
AW: Woods Farm,
4.5.
DO: Woods Farm, Watlington
4.6.
AW: With David Orpwood, and this is Andrew Wood
interviewing,
umm, David if I asked you to introduce yourself, how would you, how
would you
do that, what would you say
4.7.
DO: Well, I’m a farmer a full time professional
farmer, umm,
who’s just exiting the industry, I’ve, had pigs and sheep, umm, due to,
the,
total collapse in the industry, or the commodity price of the industry,
I
couldn’t continue, any longer without loosing everything I’ve got, I
sincerely
hope I won’t loose my house, although, I’m prepared, well not prepared,
I’m
aware in the meek and misty background that I might loose it because of
the,
amount of debt built up, umm, I just hope that won’t happen
4.8.
AW: Let’s start at the beginning, how, how did you,
can I
just move this slightly closer
4.9.
[Microphone is moved towards David Orpwood]
4.10.
AW:
There we go, umm, how, when did you start in farming, how did you get
into
farming
4.11.
DO:
I got into farming, I, I went to a school called Christchurch Hospital,
in
Sussex, and umm, when I went to see my Careers Master about what I
should be
doing in life, he said I should be a, go into, into commodity, I think
it was,
commodity or something like that, anyway, umm, I thought it was
fantastic, and
after about three weeks of, you know, saying look, I think it was
commercial or
commodity, I realised he didn’t know what he was talking about, so I
decided to
go farming, worked on a farm that Easter holidays, liked the
environment I was
working in, and moved out, when I left school, I went and worked for
the farm
for a year, then I went to agricultural college
4.12.
AW:
Err, what day, what age did you leave, err, school, commodities you
mean, do
you mean commodity trading, do you
4.13.
DO:
I’ve no idea what he meant
4.14.
AW:
Ooh
4.15.
DO:
I’ve no idea what he meant, umm, it was a chap called Stan Malone, the,
the
physics master, and he got paid an extra two hundred and fifty quid a
year, to
do, to do, careers and he hadn’t the faintest idea what he was talking
about,
umm, so I, I, I never got involved in the commodities or whatever it
was he was
suggesting I went to, commerce, it might have been commerce actually,
commerce,
I think he was suggesting I went into, but I’d no idea what he meant,
still
don’t, umm, such a broad spectrum, but umm, I think I made the right
decision,
and, had a very good farming life in the ‘80s and ‘90s, but err, mid,
late ‘90s
I got decimated
4.16.
AW:
What sort of age, did you leave school, sixteen
4.17.
DO:
Seventeen, seventeen, yeah
4.18.
AW:
And was that near here, where you living around this area
4.19.
DO:
Yeah, I was born and breed in Newham, which is about umm, which is in
South
Oxfordshire about six miles from where we are now, umm, but I went to
school as
I say, in Horsham, I boarded, was a boarding, a boarding
school, hmm, hmm
4.20.
AW:
So err, were, were any of your farmer, sorry, family in farming
4.21.
DO:
My farther, my farther farmed, umm, until, I was six, in 1953, ‘4,
sorry, until
I was three, in 1956, he had a brain tumour, he had a pioneering
operation
which saved his life, but the farms went, my grandfather farmed, umm,
and that
was sold and my great uncle farmed, and that was all sold, so by, by
the time I
was four years old, or five years old, all the farming interests we got
had
gone, which was a bit short sighted, considering there was myself and,
and a
brother, umm, but that’s life, and so, although we lived in the
country, I
actually had no contact with agriculture on a day to day basis, umm,
for any of
my formative life, and, err, I, I, still consider myself to be a umm,
first
generation farmer, all be it my father farmed before me
4.22.
AW:
So, you, you went to err, boarding school, did, was that err, what age
would
have, did you grow up on a farm, were you actually, living on the farm
4.23.
DO:
No, no, no, no, we lived in the village, we lived in the village not on
a farm
4.24.
AW:
Ah
4.25.
DO:
I went to boarding school when I was nine years old, umm, then my
mother died
when I was twelve, so it was all quite a change in all our lives, and
umm, my
father remarried when I was fifteen, and they moved to, to
Gloucestershire, and
umm, it was very, sort fifteen year old teenager, and step mother
situations
isn’t always the easiest situation, so err, I spent, may have spent a
fair bit
of my time back here in South Oxfordshire
4.26.
AW:
And did you, did you, volunteer or help out at a local farm, when you,
when you
were
4.27.
DO:
No, no
4.28.
AW:
Growing up, or
4.29.
DO:
No, no, no, no, not at all, didn’t do any work on a farm, didn’t have
any
farming involvement, until I was seventeen
4.30.
AW:
And err, how, how, did that start
4.31.
DO:
How did what start
4.32.
AW:
Your, your, farming involvement
4.33.
DO:
Umm, I suppose
4.34.
AW:
Someone you knew was it
4.35.
DO:
Yeah, yeah, it was through a contact, indirectly through my father, who
he knew
when he was farming, umm, I worked in the, in, in the Easter holidays,
I mean,
I thought I ought to give it a go, thought it might be something for
me, and
also of course, as a school, a school boy, I had no money, you know,
we, I, we
had about a quid a term or something, pound a term, and umm to spend at
the
tuck shop or what have you, so to actually go and work on a farm, and
earn five
quid a week, was, was, you know, like I was in cloud nine with err, you
know
some cash in my pocket, umm, but I, you know, the weather was terrible
when I
worked on the farm that Easter, one of those old fashioned Easter
holidays,
when it was cold and snowy and everything, and it was horrendous bloody
job,
but in the last few days, weather was fantastic and, I’d, I’d, just,
just got
me, and I think I farm, not because of my love of farming, but because
my love
of countryside, excuse me, I like umm, I like to see the, umm, you
know, what’s
about me, I like the wildlife, umm, whether it be fauna, flora,
insects, or
whatever, I love it
4.36.
AW:
So you like being outside
4.37.
DO:
Yup, I like being in the countryside, yeah, I like being in the
countryside,
great country sports chap, I support all of that, umm, spend a lot of
time,
outside or have done, I spend less now, I spend more time in my office
now,
umm, I’m forty nine years old, my backs given up on me, and umm, I can
do less
physical work then I used to
4.38.
AW:
So when you started what sort of work would you be doing then
4.39.
DO:
Err, when I did my first
4.40.
AW:
That Easter
4.41.
DO:
Oh, that Easter, umm, I think I spent most of my time, digging out a
drain, and
it rained like hell, and filled it back in, I had to dig it out again,
umm,
might have done a bit of cleaning of the grain store, umm, I, I
remember when
the whether was nice we, were putting a brick wall up, I was helping
the
mechanic put a brick wall up, that I, for some reason I quite enjoyed
that,
umm, but you know it’s a long time a go, I can’t tell you exactly what
I was
doing, you know we’re talking about twenty years ago, thirty years ago
4.42.
AW:
That farm then, can you, if you think back to it, err, how, how it was
and how
farming is now, would you say there’d been many changes? I’d say the
changes
had been chalk and cheese, you won’t recognise, one of the thinks, and
I know
that farm very well now, umm, the number of labour units on the farm
was much
greater than they are now, umm, the reliance on large heavy tractors,
as, as
things have turned to now, you know, then there was, much smaller
machinery,
many, many, many more men, umm generally a mixed farm with, you know,
different
sorts of livestock rather than specialist in one form of livestock,
umm, and of
course, your talking about the, umm, late sixties, early seventies,
umm, when
farming was very profitable, umm, you know there was a, you knew what
you were
going to get for your crop before you even planted it, so, yeah, times
have
changed dramatically, umm, there was profitability and there was
development,
umm, food was still wanted, farming was, farmers were, considered to be
a, very
important part of the community, which I believe they going to return
to be,
umm, we, you know, we had, we, we weren’t affected by things like, umm,
the
strength of currency, interest rates were pretty stable then, so yeah
there
were lots of things, umm, that were different, we didn’t have this
globalisation when people thing they can grow something half round the
world
and then transport it, umm, hmm, and personally I think we’re going to
see a
return to some of that
4.43.
AW:
So there were lots of other farm labourers at that time, how, what sort
of, do
you remember what sort of size that farm was, in terms of your own
career, so,
you were in that, that Easter was that formative do you think, in your
decision
to, to go into agriculture, it sounds like it was
4.44.
DO:
Umm, I don’t, I honestly can’t ask that, and the reason being is that,
because
it was such terrible bloody weather, and it was such hard work, and I’d
never
done a days work in my life until then, umm, and I had some pretty
shitty jobs,
that to, to say that, made or broke whether I went into agriculture or
not, I’m
not sure that is correct, but I suppose it didn’t put me off, umm, I
think
probably if, if, I had my hand on my heart, because my family had
farmed and my
brother was farming, I sort of thought it was a direction that I
thought that I’d
go into, because then, unlike now, they had very poor careers
structure, in the
schools, I mean I went to one of the formative public schools in the
Country,
there was eight hundred and fifty of us there, and the careers master,
I mean
the careers office was tiny, absolutely tiny, and, you know
4.45.
AW:
Which school was that, sorry
4.46.
DO:
It was called Christ Hospital, it’s the blue coats school at Horsham,
you know,
they wear the long blue coats and the yellow stockings, they, they,
their band
often plays at Lords or at Twickenham, umm, March to London once a
year, it was
founded in 1553, incidentally, the year, two year before, no the year
before I
left, I broke the record at the school for the mile, the fastest miler
ever
since 1950, since 1553, and then the following year a chap called
Bertie
Freeland broke my record, and the year after that, they then went from
the mile
to fifteen hundred meters, so to this day, since 1553, I’m the second
fastest miler
every to go to Christ Hospital, there you go, a bit of history for you
there
4.47.
AW:
It sounds like something you’re proud of
4.48.
DO:
Yeah, I find it quite amusing really, you got to add a bit of humour, I
mean
I’m a great person for humour, umm, I, I, I think life’s pretty tough
out there
and if you let it get to you it’s hard, err, come from a very Christian
background and I expect some of that was formed at school, although I
didn’t
realise it, and I believe that you’re put on this earth to help each
other and,
I think if more people took that angle and worked with, rather than
against
each other, I think, we’d be a much happier place both in the city and
in the
rural areas
4.49.
AW:
So presumably you’re boarding, the boarding school there had people
from all
over the country did it
4.50.
DO:
Yup, yup, yup, yup, it, it was founded, as I said in 1553 by Edward
Sixth, for
vagabond and down and outs, which is probably how I got there, umm,
there was
lots of clergy sons and umm, err, people from the forces sons, umm, but
yeah,
all over the Country, and I’ve kept in touch with virtually none of
them, which
is rather sad, whereas my college days, I’d kept in touch with quite a
few,
umm, stronger, stronger links
4.51.
AW:
So, then you went on to college, did you study, umm, agriculture at
college
4.52.
DO:
Yeah, yeah, I went to a place called Shuttleworth College, which is in
Bedfordshire and I did a three year course, OND, Ordinary National
Diploma,
which was one year in, one year out, umm, on a farm and then one year
back in,
and umm, I, that, I think that was probably the making of me really,
umm, just
left boarding school, although I worked on the farm the year, when I
left
boarding school, prior to going to college, um, it was a very, very,
integrated
farm and there were three sons on the farm of farm workers, there, so
they
worked their with their fathers, and one of them, or two of them, with
their
grandfathers as well, and they never left the umm, they never left the
farm, in
fact the previous year they’d never left the village, so they had no
idea of
the outside world, so it was almost like being at boarding school
still, so
umm, when I, when I left there and went to college, I mean, I really
let my
hair down, yup
4.53.
AW:
Did you specialise, or was it, a very general course, did you
specialise in
livestock, for example, or
4.54.
DO:
No, no, no, no, no, no, the first year was general, although I did move
towards
livestock in the second, in the second, the final year, yeah, and the
middle
year, the middle year I worked on an arable, diary farm for umm, in
Hampshire,
a place called Ashley, for a guy called Keith Bromley, who was Bromley
of
Russell and Bromley, the shoe people, and umm, yeah I loved it there,
absolutely fantastic, I had a ball, and there was an old chap there
called,
George Barns, who was the foreman, and umm, I don’t know he must have
been
fifty five or sixty then, and he, he just knew every trick in the book
and it
was just a great learn curve, loved it
4.55.
AW:
Why do you think you liked it so much
4.56.
DO:
I just, I was given, freedom, umm, I was given responsibility, umm, it
was
fantastic, yeah, yeah
4.57.
DO:
Ginny, come in, can you switch this off
4.58.
[Family
member enters room]
4.59.
AW:
Okay, umm, so on, on, on the Bromley’s farm you worked there, was it in
effect,
a day release, kind of
4.60.
DO:
No, no, no, no, no I worked, I was there, for a year
4.61.
AW:
Oh, okay
4.62.
DO:
It was the middle year at college, so you went to college for a year,
then you
went out, a placement on a farm
4.63.
AW:
Oh
4.64.
DO:
You worked there full time
4.65.
AW:
It was kind of like a sandwich course
4.66.
DO:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a sandwich course, yeah, and then
, umm,
I’d looked after, the young calves, got involved in a fair bit of
ploughing,
which I’d never done before, umm, and I enjoyed it, yeah, good crowd,
locally,
motor bike boys, I was in the motor bike sense then, yeah, it was good
4.67.
AW:
So at that time, umm, if you think back to that, that farming, then ,
on that
Bromley’s, err, can you see things that, err, in agriculture now, which
are, substantially
different err, you obviously farmed with tractors and ploughs, umm,
maybe
there’s other farm machinery that has come in
4.68.
DO:
Oh yeah, I mean there, there were, it was a, although Keith Bromley was
a
wealthy man, the farm was under capitalised, umm, the machinery they
had there
was pretty ropey, and when I was there, they put in a new herring bone
milking
parlour, I think it was a, err, ten, ten or twelve, twelve, or
something, umm,
and we were still, I think we were, I think there was still, umm, loose
house
rather than cubicle house the dairy, umm
4.69.
AW:
Was it a mixed farm
4.70.
DO:
Yeah, it was dairy and arable, umm, a lovely, lovely position, it was a
gentlemen’s farm really, it was, it was, not a massive farm, I suppose,
six,
seven hundred acres, umm
4.71.
AW:
Was it still, was it using churns at that time, had they gone to tankers
4.72.
DO:
No, no, no, no, no, no, I’m not that bloody old
4.73.
AW:
Ha, ha
4.74.
DO:
Umm, there were, umm, all bulk tank stuff, yeah, yeah, no, it was good,
it was
good, I enjoyed it, and they had a, had a pedigree, umm, Fresian herd
there,
whereas modern day you’d have Holsteins, cause of higher milk yields,
umm,
maybe not quite so good milk, not such good calves, um, they had, he
had an
Angus herd in Scotland, an Angus herd of cattle, err, an award winning
herd
called the Ashley herd, and so we used to use an Angus bull on the
heifers, so
we, had, looked after those calves and everything, he had an old
fashioned
Scottish, umm, steading by the house, very labour intensive, umm, you
know if
you mucked in without, a lot of it was done by hand, you know, with a
four end
loader whereas now it would be, you know, umm, fork lift trucks and all
this
sort of thing, so, yeah, things have changed round just so
dramatically, also I
suppose then, it was, umm, hedgerows have changed, the hedgerows used
to be
bigger then, umm, but I suppose that was basically when the grass
fields, umm,
I can’t actually remember when the hedges were laid but you, you never,
this
day and age see hedges laid to keep cattle in, umm, you only see them
laid,
maybe because they can get a grant for it, but it’s all, cattle are all
kept in
with barbed wired, err, which I think is rather sad because you loose
some of
the, some of the old umm, skills, but I suppose if the farming
community hasn’t
got the staff, umm, and it’s not profitable they can’t afford to use
contractors to lay it so it’s probably cheaper to put up some barbed
wire, which
is rather a shame, umm
4.75.
AW:
Who, who would you have been working with at that time on the farm,
would they
be staff or would they be contractors
4.76.
CH:
No, no, they were staff, yeah, staff, there was umm, there was George
and Bingo
and then there was the cow man, and the manager, and the boy, it was
me, umm,
and no I was, yeah, very much staff, the fact, I say very much staff,
the, the
dairy, the cowman, came from a contract, a company called LKL, which
was, umm,
they contract out, people to go milking, so you know, if the guy walks
off the
farm today, LKL will guarantee someone in, to do the milking the next
morning,
and things like that, umm, but yeah, it was, good team, you know,
although
bingo was a bit of a gypsy, umm, wasn’t really liked by George, but the
other
theorists, used to have a lot of fun, I men it was really good fun, you
know,
it was time when you had time for a bit of fun, we had, we had some
potatoes,
we used to have the women come in from the village to come and sort the
potatoes, and of course as the boy they used to give me heaps, you
know, sort
of things that you, character building really
4.77.
AW:
So they were growing vegetables as well
4.78.
DO:
No, potatoes
4.79.
AW:
Okay
4.80.
DO:
Yeah, yeah not, it wasn’t a vegetable farm, I think vegetables would be
sort
of, if you’re talking about vege, you’re talking about things like
lettuces and
carrots and that thing, so, yeah, hmm, it wasn’t, terribly, wasn’t big,
only about
twenty acres, you know, you’d get about four hundred tonnes or
something, but
it was, umm, yeah, it was something to do in the Winter, sort spuds,
and umm,
get ribbed mercilessly by these women
4.81.
AW:
And err, so they were growing cereals as, as well, was that wheat or
barley, do
you, do you remember
4.82.
DO:
Yeah, wheat and barley, umm, I think we grow some oats, but I can’t
remember
why, umm, yeah, so yeah it was, it was, conventional sort of umm,
arable side
of it, yeah, although, quite frankly, although I did quite a lot of
ploughing,
I can’t remember us having a combine or doing the combining, we must
have done,
I just don’t, I can’t recollect that in my mind
4.83.
AW:
And you said it was a gentleman’s farm, does, did that, reflect in any,
in any
other way, or just the sort of pace of, things
4.84.
DO:
The, the farmhouse was very much a, umm, you know, very lovely,
farmhouse,
that, that, the farm wouldn’t be able to keep the farmhouse, also Keith
Bromley
Was very into ornamental ducks, and he had what was called a duckery,
which is
now given to the National Trust and he had umm, I don’t know, about
fifty, or
sixty, different pens all round the house, all with water and
everything, umm,
we had different sorts of ducks from all over the world, umm, so that
was, and
there was, two guys or three guys running that, umm, so yeah, that was,
umm,
was, also he had a shoot, umm, umm, on the farm, which, I mean, I got
involved
beating I couldn’t really tell you how good it was, although I know the
person,
I’ve meet the people who bought the farm subsequently and I think
they’ve got a
very good shoot there, I haven’t been back to look at it yet but I will
do one
day, umm, and, they, they had a lot wealthy people around, I mean,
James Robertson
Justice, err, lived in one of the cottages, umm, with his, with hi
lady, the
baroness, umm, yeah, it was, interesting time
4.85.
AW:
Do you think umm, working on that farm, it err, decided what direction
you
wanted to go in farming, I mean
4.86.
DO:
Not really, no because I’ve never got involved in dairy subsequently,
umm, I,
I’ve always gone down the line of, of animals and I suppose, because
the first,
my first year on farm, on a farm, which was the year between school and
college, umm, I worked on a farm which was pigs and I worked with the
pigs
nearly all the time, and I expect that formulated where I was going to
go, and
it was, sort of, a pretty old fashion farmer, a guy called Roger
Bitmead, who
unfortunately died a couple of years ago, and umm
4.87.
AW:
Was that close to here
4.88.
DO:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a place called Choolsey in South Oxfordshire, and
err, I came
back, my father picked me up from school, an bought me to see him, for
an
interview with him, and he said, boy my men work hard, I expect you to,
and I
thought, crikey, what does work hard mean, and the first day I was
there, we
were throwing, bails of straw, off a trailer onto the front of a rick,
and the
back of this, on the front of this shed called a cart hold which is a
long thin
shed, and err, Tommy was at the front of the, on the trailer, chucking
it off
and Tommy was one of these three sons, saying who never travelled
anywhere the
previous year, he chucked the bails off the trailer to me and I chucked
them
to, to the back to David Harris, and umm, after about twenty minutes of
doing
this, old David Harris told me, you’ll never keep that up, so I was
throwing
them right from the front to the back, and bearing in mind I’d never
done it
before, it was absolutely knackering me, he said, you’ll never keep
that up,
and I’ve used that as a model for my life, that I will keep it up and
err, I
think it’s important to keep it up and have resolve and determination
to get
where you want to get to, so, yeah, I think probably that, that first
year,
err, influenced me more than the pigs and also pigs became a big thing
in this
area, umm, I been born and breed in South Oxfordshire, although, you
know, I
was away in school, for eight, nine years, boarding school, and I had a
year in
Australia, umm
4.89.
AW:
Was that farming as well
4.90.
DO:
Yeah, yeah, foreign farm, did lot of different things out there, umm,
so
although, although I’ve never moved my roots very far, I’ve actually
travelled
quite well, umm, you know, went to college for three years, worked in
Hampshire
for a year, so yeah, so, although I’ve been involved in lots of places,
this is
my roots and pigs have become, as it was quite a big thing in this area
4.91.
AW:
Why, why do you thing that is, that it was a big thing in this
area, South
Oxfordshire is that
4.92.
DO:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sort of the land type and also the technology that
was
developed around here, by a guy called Richard Rhodonite, he put
outdoor pigs
on the map, and umm, and I got involved after I left college, it took
me a
while to relive, realise what I wanted to do, but in fact I’d worked
for a chap
called Roland Harris who took over the, his fathers farm, and his
fathers farm
was the farm that I did that first month with, between school and,
school
holidays, and he, I went and worked for him running his outdoor pig
herd and
looked after eight hundred sows, did that for two years and when I umm,
err,
then I’d decided I wanted to start my own pig herd, so I went to
Australia for
a year, and had a break, got away from it all, came back, worked with
my
brother for a year while I set up, excuse me, I hope the yawns
don’t come out
in this bloody thing, umm, well I set up my won pig herd and I started
my own
pig herd on 5th November 1979
4.93.
AW:
So you, your brother had a farm here in, in
4.94.
DO:
He rented land and kept pigs on, the same way that I did
4.95.
AW:
Right
4.96.
DO:
Yup, yup
4.97.
AW:
And, and that was close to here was it
4.98.
DO:
Yup, yup, yup, yup
4.99.
AW:
You said that there were some, err, technology or some, some reason
why, pigs
had developed particularly in this area, what was that
4.100.
DO: Well, the,
hmm, keeping pigs, pig, if you go back in time, before your or my time,
err, as
I understand it, most farms had a bit of this and bit of that, you
know, they
might have half a dozen sows in a sty and then, you know, you went on
to work
for the second world war, people had a pig, two pigs, down the bottom
of the
garden, they’d feed scraps, one they’d sell, one they’d have for
themselves,
umm, and thinks moved on, and farming’s got more commercial, I mean,
especially
since the second world war, there was sort of you know, a, a, the
Government
wanted this country to be able to feed itself, and so instead of sort
of having
bits and pieces, people started to go down the line, a bit more
specialist way,
umm, you know, gave them hand milking cows and to machine
milking, you know,
having more, having a bigger herd of cows, not maybe having the pigs
and sheep,
or whatever, anyway, round here, a guy called Richard Rhodonite Saw a
sow
living in an orchard one day, with a litter of pigs, and he thought
that was
quite interesting, and a sow can live two days without umm, sorry, two
weeks without
food, two days without water and two minutes without air, and he
thought, well
the air’s the cheap bit of it and we can get that in, by putting them
outside,
so he developed this outdoor pig system, using tin huts and umm, you
know, he
had quite a big, big enterprise and I suppose people saw it and sort of
copied
it, that’s generally what happens isn’t it, and umm, but that’s why
outdoor
pigs became, a big thing in this area
4.101.
AW: So until then
pigs had been kept inside had they
4.102.
DO: Well, err, I,
until then, probably there weren’t big herds of pigs, that’s what it
boils down
to, and this is a way you can have big herds of pigs that were cheap,
cheap to
run, I mean, to put up buildings, to put up buildings now, for, for
pigs is
really expensive, umm, in this country, but to put a tin hut, tin huts
outside,
excuse me, but to put a tin hut, tin huts outside isn’t quite so
expensive, not
the capital costs
4.103.
AW: So pig, pig
umm, the size of pig herds, do you call them herds
4.104.
DO: Yeah, pig
herds, yeah
4.105.
AW: was
increasing was it
4.106.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
yeah, it was, I mean, Richard Rhodonite, in fairness had a big herd and
so did
Rowland Harris, the guy I worked for, umm, when I went into it, I
started with two
hundred sows
4.107.
AW: What sort of
date do you think that would be, roughly?
4.108.
AW: What sort of
date do you think that would that be, roughly?
4.109.
DO: When I
started?
4.110.
AW: Yeah
4.111.
DO: 5th November
1979, umm
4.112.
AW: Gosh, you can
remember that very clearly!
4.113.
DO: Well Yeah, it
was a big step in my life wasn't it really, you know, starting up my
own
farming enterprise. Um
4.114.
AW: Was that
4.115.
DO: 5th November
is not difficult to remember is it, because it's fireworks day.
4.116.
AW: Is that
because you had to sign a contract, or
4.117.
DO: No,
4.118.
AW: NO
4.119.
DO: No, no.
4.120.
AW: That’s
4.121.
DO: It was the
farm sale, farm sale, and I bought two hundred sows at the farm sale,
and the
farm sale was, was the guy I used to work-for, Roland Harris. He was
getting
out of pigs, so I bought two hundred sows out of his business; well I
bought, I
think I bought ninety eight sows in pig and um a hundred and ten guilts
that,
umm, hadn't been served yet. So umm, yeah I went into it and I worked
bloody
hard, you know, I worked seven days a week, like I still do,
unfortunately, and
um, I was on my own to start with, with these two hundred sows, on some
else's
land, which I rented, umm and it was, very exciting.
4.122.
AW: Now you’re
herd size today is larger than two hundred isn’t it
4.123.
DO: No, no, no
4.124.
AW: Is that right
4.125.
DO: The figure’s
I’m giving you
4.126.
AW: Sorry, I’m
just
4.127.
DO: I'm getting
out of agriculture at the moment, I've got five hundred and seventy
pigs left
to sell, that's growing pigs, all my sows have now gone, they went by
end of, I
don’t know, end of April, and err we, we built a heard up to twelve
hundred
sows, and err, in the beginning of umm 1998, we sell what we call straw
pigs,
which is a pig at 32 kilos that someone else buys and fattens, we
haven't got
the facilities or the room to fatten them, and um, we were selling pigs
at
forty pounds a piece and you know that was, that was, good, good
business, um,
and within six weeks they'd dropped from forty pound a piece to eleven
pound a
piece, which is equivalent to two pounds of bacon, umm, and umm, you
know I'd
got umm, I'd got a years supply backed up you know from when they were
bought,
growing and everything, and so I couldn't stop it, you know I couldn't
say stop,
you know, I haven't got a widget factory which I can stop today, um
anyway so I
was, and, that, that gave me a big loss, I mean my, umm, I’d built my
business
up, err, out of profits, which I thought was the right thing to do, umm
and
some of it was borrowed money as well, so I'd built up a strong viable
business
with a turnover of a million pounds, which in agriculture is quite a
lot.
4.128.
AW: That was when
you had twelve hundred
4.129.
DO: Yeah, yeah, I
had twelve hundred sows and five hundred ewes, and umm, sheep, and umm
4.130.
AW: How long do
you think it took you to get from two hundred to twelve hundred
4.131.
DO: Well it was
just actually, ha, ha, it was a freak, because, we were cleaning out
one bit of
land and moving onto another one, so, there was, a year span, so we
actually
would, where, would have had just umm, err eight or nine hundred sows
but
because one herd hadn’t gone, and the other got put in, but I’d
gradually,
gradually developed since 1980 umm, the five hundred sows were I was
at, I was
quite comfortable at in the beginning of the ‘90s, and then I got some
more
ground and went to a thousand sows, and then we had to get off the
ground we
started off, and so I set up another herd, so we had about thirteen
hundred
sows, but as the one’s were getting out, I was killing out one herd and
got a
new one going and umm, umm, we just got blown apart and I’ve never been
able to
recover, from that looses and then foot and mouth last year, umm, was
the final
blow, foot and mouth took a third of my income last year, umm
4.132.
AW: You said you
never recovered from that loose, that was when had
4.133.
DO: Five sources,
yeah, twelve hundred sows
4.134.
AW: Twelve
hundred and the market price dropped
4.135.
DO: Dropped, yeah
4.136.
AW: Do you know
why the market price dropped so much?
4.137.
DO: Yeah, it
dropped for a number of reasons. The pound strengthened against the,
the umm, Deuchmark,
um, the Russians, um suddenly became bankrupt and they couldn't afford
to buy
any meat, so pig meat suffered, and the tiger economy went through a
depression
too and they were big pig importers, importers of pig meat and so those
three
things took us apart and the fourth one of course was the EU had quite
a lot of
pig meat, we were over supplied of pig meat, and we lost all our export
markets, so you know, total supply and demand, because the pig industry
has no
subsidy.
4.138.
AW: Has is ever
had any subsidy
4.139.
DO: Umm, the only
subsidy it would have had, would be on buildings, umm, and that’s going
back
before, before my time in farming, probably in the sixties, umm, I
can’t really
answer questions about that
4.140.
AW: When you set
up, how, how did you umm, where there grants for you to, umm
4.141.
DO: No, no, no,
no, no I had seven thousand of my own money, umm, a chum of mine,
farming chum
of mine
4.142.
AW: Was that
through your, your own work, or what
4.143.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah a little bit of inheritance I think, umm, I can’t, can’t
just
remember, err, all I know is I had seven thousand pounds, so a farming
chum of
mine, guaranteed, ten thousand pound to the bank and the bank, umm,
lent me a
bit against my umm, business plan, etc, and the guy I bought the pigs
from gave
me some credit and, yeah, I just, you know, ducked and dived really,
to, to,
get started, and I have no regret in doing that
4.144.
AW: You say it
was an exciting time for you,
4.145.
DO: oh yeah, I
mean setting up your own business, umm, going into a, commercial world,
umm,
really moving from being one of the workers to one of the, the umm,
leaders in
the industry, well I wasn’t as, as I started, I mean I’ve certainly
become umm,
a leader in the agricultural industry, and umm, I think it’s something
that’s
worth fighting for, and I can’t do it without the prior knowledge of
actually
being involved, at, day to day, umm, there’s no experience, there’s
compromise
for experience, and what I’ve done and what I’ve learned by setting up
a
business from nothing, fighting the good times and the bad, you know,
getting
my hands dirty seven days a week, umm, frank, you know, there is no
compromise
for that
4.146.
AW: In terms of umm,
pig farming, you’ve said about increased size of the herd, I mean, was
that
partly about you growing your business
4.147.
DO: Yeah
4.148.
AW: or a general
trend towards larger
4.149.
DO: I suppose it
was me thinking, that was the way to go, you know, to have a bigger
business, I
wanted to be in a position where I could have, done a little bit more
management, a little bit maybe less day, hands-on day to day, but never
got to
that, I’ve always been hands on day to day, umm, and I saw that err, I
thought
if I had a five hundred sow herd I’d have a good business that, umm,
you know
would stand up, stack up, anyway and if I could help develop my
business to a
certain size, and then, obviously, not at the expense of cost, but time
to
develop up to a size when I could probably concentrate more on making
that
unit, umm, very efficient, umm, but I think probably in terms of my
hands on
farming, I’m more, umm, I’m more of the hands on, than the management
side in
farming, I, I find some of the management side of farming, I mean it’s
not
rocket science, umm, and it isn’t necessarily mind testing, in fact
some of it
quite bloody tedious, when you think about it, umm, but to sort of work
out,
where you need your pig huts, and all this sort of thing, you know,
once you’ve
done it a couple of times, you’ve done it, haven’t you, and so, I, I
suppose I
wanted to move onto other things and umm, little did I know, you know,
what I
was heading for, umm, and err, you know, although I’m forty nine years
old, my
careers going to completely change and I think, everything that I’ve
done up to
now, has, will bear me in good stead, for what I’ve been doing the last
three
or four years and where I’m going
4.150.
AW: In terms of
keeping pigs, did you see changes in, umm, err, husbandry, breeds,
feed, markets
4.151.
DO: All of it,
all of it, yup, umm, the, the breed side we’ve definitely gone from
umm,
traditional type breeds to hybrids, trying to get, better pigs that
produce
more pigs per litter, that grow faster, that are leaner, umm, in terms
of the
feed, it’s become much more concentrated, umm, you know, moved away
from the
swill side to the, the, um, compound foods
4.152.
AW: Were you,
were you using much swill at that time
4.153.
DO: No, never
ever used swill, I’ve always used bought in feeds, compound foods, I
did a
little bit, but umm, no I’ve, yeah the, the industry has changed and
still is,
probably, umm, I mean it’s got, because there is no subsidy in, in, in
pig
keeping, and, and, nor do I think there should be, umm, you know it’s
got to be
a, a stand, a stand alone business, so it’s got a, you got to keep
moving with
development, I mean you look at the IT business, how quickly that’s
moving on,
a computer is out of date within six months, well you know, that’s
business,
that’s how businesses develop, they keep going forward, and I think in
agriculture, in the pig industry, they have, although I’m saying that,
in the
last, err, four years ago, four, three, four or three years ago
probably, we
were selling three hundred and twenty thousand pigs a week to be killed
in this
country, umm, last week I think, they were down to a hundred and sixty
five
thousand, so we’ve seen, we’ve seen the industry half, umm, and of
course with
that, all the technology and the development is going to be halved
because it
doesn’t matter what company you use to, to provide you whatever, the,
any
research and development they do is out of profit from the money you’ve
given
them, and so you’re not seeing that in agriculture like it was,
especially in
the pig industry, and umm, although, err, some of the people we use,
especially
in the breeding side, pig improvement company, although it was started
here in
Oxfordshire, it’s a multinational company now, and it’s called err,
Profit Bays
I should think it’s in America, I think, if they haven’t already, I
suspect
their going to move their head office over there, umm, so we’re
loosing, quite
a lot of the umm, advancement in technology that we built up in this
country,
umm, which is rather sad
4.154.
AW: Has the place
where you err, bought and sold your pigs, the markets, has that changed
since
you went into pigs in ‘79
4.155.
DO: Myself, yeah
it did, because when I first went in, the farmer who, who actually gave
me a
ten thousand credit to the bank, who sort of gave me a guarantee, was
actually
buying my pigs at three weeks off me, off the field, I’d, I’d take the
trailer
down to his farm and buy them, in fact the first lot of pigs I sold,
was 89 on
31st of December 1979, umm, in other words, the same year in
which I
started and, he, he sort me out and umm, gave me a cheque that day
which is
rather sweet so in fact I put money in the bank from the sale of my
pigs in the
very first year I started, which was nice, and you know, I’ll never
forget
that, umm, but, I was selling to him to start with, umm, and he was a
member of
a company called Thames Valley Pigs, which was a marketing group, umm,
which is
still going to this day, err, which I subsequently became a member and
then a
director of, umm, that company, and it’s basically, the large pig
farmers round
here put together, umm, setup an office, set up an marketing
manager, and umm,
market the pigs to the best ability they could, umm, and that’s, that’s
been a
very, very strong company, and then, umm, actually when I was a
director, about
six years ago, no five years ago, we amalgamated with another company
called, CAMBAC
pigs, and we took it over really, it was called Thames Valley CAMBAC,
umm,
because were loosing some of the members from Thames Valley pigs, umm,
and we
wanted to strengthen, umm, keep our numbers high, anyway we took over
Thames,
we took over CAMBAC and then, umm, over the last three years, since the
demise
of the pig industry, and it really has been a demise, the pig industry,
we’ve
lost a significant number of the people, umm , in the industry in this
area,
and umm, many of those were CAMBAC members and so we’ve in fact,
amalgamated
and now we sell pigs, umm, right the way down to Cornwall, we market
pigs, we
have a, have a, umm, a western division too, umm, and so we’re
marketing pigs
really in the south of England, Thames Valley CAMBAC is one of the
largest,
well it is the biggest independent marketer, we sell eight per cent of
the pigs
in the country
4.156.
AW: Who are those
pigs sold to, to abattoirs
4.157.
DO: To abattoirs,
yeah, err, which is one of the sad things really, I think that we
should have a
closer connection, liaison, with the, umm, the end user, the retailer,
and
that’s where, what I’m doing now, umm,
4.158.
AW: Has that
always been, sorry
4.159.
DO: And we’ve
been discouraged, we’ve been discouraged from, from having a
relationship with
the, err, retailer by the process, abattoir processors cause they think
that’s
their domain, they deal with them, umm, we deal with the, with the
abattoir
processor, and I think that’s one of the weaknesses in agriculture
4.160.
AW: Have pigs
been sold in markets, I mean
4.161.
DO: Yeah, but not
many, not many, it’s not a big, you don’t get many pigs sold in the
market, I
honestly couldn’t tell you how many, you know, if it’s a couple of
thousand a
week I’d be surprised, you talking about livestock market
4.162.
AW: Yeah, yeah,
yeah
4.163.
DO: No, most of
them go through some form of, some form of marketing group
4.164.
AW: Oh, because
there used to be several markets in this area, there aren’t now,
Banbury market
was the largest one
4.165.
DO: Yeah, Banbury
market, Banbury market’s closed and that was a pig, a big pig market,
we got
Thame market, umm, Thame Farmers Auction Mart, which is good, umm, and
that’s
been sort of kept alive by farmers, Bicester is still alive I think
4.166.
AW: That’s a
4.167.
DO: In Northampton
somewhere
4.168.
AW: Am I right in
thinking that Thame market is owned by a farmers Co-operative
4.169.
DO: Yup, yup,
yup, that’s right yeah
4.170.
AW: Is that a
similar arrangement for the marketing company, CAMBAC that you told me
4.171.
AW: No, no, no,
no, no, I mean I don’t know the structure of how, umm, Thame farmers
auction
market, I don’t know the financial structure of it, but as I understand
it
they, they sort basically have to raise some money to buy the auction
market,
not the premises, buy the, buy the, the auction side of it, um, and a
whole lot
of farmers put money in and they’ve all got a shareholding in it, and
it’s,
it’s, the Chairman called Brian Lloyd who I think is a very good man,
umm,
they’ve got good staff running it, and I wish them luck, whereas Thames
Valley
CAMBAC Started off with about, a dozen farmers who set it up, and then
when I
joined it, I had to pay five and half thousand pound to become a member
and I
was the last one, of who had to pay that sort of money, because they
realised,
I mean, it was hard to find then, I mean, five and half thousand might
not
sound like a lot of money
4.172.
AW: What sort of
date would that be, roughly
4.173.
DO: Umm
4.174.
AW: Can I just
check was it 1979
4.175.
DO: About 19,
umm, I can’t remember exactly when I joined, I could probably look it
up
somewhere, but it’s probably about 1987 to ‘88
4.176.
AW: Right
4.177.
DO: I would have
thought, no, no, it would have been later than that, I’ll tell you when
it was,
it was 1990, 1990, that’s when I did it, because I bought this, bought
this
area, here, in 1979, 1989 this is now where I live, I bought this,
sixteen acre
field and there was a telegraph post and a water tough in, and umm, pig
prices
were coming good, I found some, weener accommodation to wean my own
pigs into
this accommodation and fatten them, so I put that up here, then I put
some barns
up, so, um, um, that was an exciting time too, it was good money,
bloody hard
work though, because we had these buildings that weren’t really the
proper,
proper buildings, and we had to develop them, and was, umm
4.178.
AW: Do you mean
the building for the pigs
4.179.
DO: Yeah, the
pigs, yeah, yeah, the pigs, yeah, and we gradually developed this,
this, umm,
this farm here, as I say I started off with a telegraph post and a
water
trough, umm, I’ve built on it since
4.180.
AW: And including
the farm house
4.181.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I, I built umm
4.182.
AW: Where we’re
sitting now in this office
4.183.
DO: Yup, that’s
right, yeah, I built umm, there’s about thirteen and half, fourteen
thousand
square foot of barn space up there, umm, which has got livestock in,
and
that’ll be umm, once I get out of agriculture, that’ll be used for,
for, other
things, and then, I built this house down here, umm, I had to go to
appeal, I
mean, the planning authorities made it, very, very difficult for me,
umm, took
me to appeal, umm, and I won the day, and then they wanted to try and
stop me
building, the, I went for an outline planning permission, and umm, I
went to appeal
that, won that, and then when we went for actuals, they were going to
turn me
down on that, and umm, anyway, I said, I told them, that if they did
that it
was going to cost them a significant amount of money and they actually
conceded, umm, to do it, but, but, one of the, one of the sad things in
the
rural economy, especially in the last three or four years, in
agriculture
plainly, on a downward turn, is that the, the planning, the planners,
and I
deal with them quite a lot, umm, wearing many hats, have a negative
approach,
and I think that’s when, one of the, I think when you look back
historically,
if you look at 1998 to 2002, 3, maybe even 4, umm, the planners have
made some
serious errors in the fact that they, are not prepared to allow
people’s businesses
continue profitably, by converting barn space into umm, into err,
profit
centres for the farm, umm, and they just make it difficult, and I think
that’s
something, I mean, I know a lot of people have followed me on this one
and it’s
something I’ve worked hard, I’m working hard at the moment to try and
get
planning planners to actually take a different angle
4.184.
AW: Which
planning authority are you in here
4.185.
DO: South
Oxfordshire District Council, it’s know as sods round here, and it is,
they are
sods, yeah
4.186.
AW: And you say
you, you’d, umm, err, what, your, so you’re actively trying to change
err, the
err, the way that farmers err, diversify in business, putting up
building, etc,
are treated, is that
4.187.
DO: Well, umm,
there’s, there’s a, we haven’t touched on yet, and I don’t know if you
want to
or not, but I’m chairman of the National Farmers Union for Berks, Bucks
and
Oxfordshire, umm, I’m in my second term, it’s the first time anyone’s
done two
terms, umm, the reason I’m doing the second term is because last year
we had
foot and mouth, err, and I didn’t really spend much time doing the work
I
wanted to do within the Union, umm, most of it was fire fighting,
because of
the foot and mouth, umm, now, the, certain members, of the, of the
Council, I
mean, I meet with the District Councils, umm, three or four times a
year now,
the staff, the rural development officers, and it’s, they’re a
fantastic group,
and what I’m trying to do, is to create in their mind, that actually
they all
want the same thing, which they’ve accepted they do, umm, and they,
there’s
limitations in what they can do because of their money, but West
Oxfordshire
District Council have just got some Leader Plus money, through William
Barton’s, who are organising it, and that money could be used in
Oxfordshire,
umm, so I have, I’ve got a good relationship with them there, I’m also
umm,
politically active and, wearing my non NFU hat I get involved
with them,
because I’m trying to change, those, actually I, I’m wearing my NFU
hat, I want
them to get a mindset that they want to look at thinks in a positive
note, not
a negative note, umm, because looking on negative note and drawing
things out, it’s
just jobs for the boys, umm, and it’s a waste of resources, it’s a
waste of time,
and it causes farmers a lot of upset and, and, and grief, and err
4.188.
AW: When you say
jobs for the boys, do you mean within the Council
4.189.
DO: Yeah, within
the Council, yeah, yeah, you know, they just want a, you know, turn
over bits
of paper, really, umm, where they can, no, what they could be doing,
they could
be putting energy and time and money into much more sensible things, I
mean,
one of the things I’d like to see happen, umm, is the use of bio-mass
in
Oxfordshire, umm, and it’s something that’s got to happen, I mean, in
Sweden,
any new housing development that’s put up they use, err, renewable
energy
sources to heat the houses, well we should be looking at that here, and
you
get, you get a lot of these politicians, and bear in mind politicians
are only
there for four years, and then they’ve go to get re-elected, so they’re
in a
situation where they actually, are only looking at a very short period
of time,
and it needs some brave people to look long term and say right, you
know, we
want a, we want renewable energy, you know we have, we’ve, we’ve got a,
we
haven’t got a, umm, infinite amount of coal and oil and everything, if
we can
grow energy and save, you know, money, carting it, and, keep growing it
year
in, year out, that’s got to be a way we should be going, and I mean
I’ve got,
I’ve got three children, age between twelve and sixteen, umm, and I
think that
we want to have a future environment for them rather then just, umm,
you know
burning the whole bloody lot up from our point of view, and that’s one
of the
problems we’re got with the Government, system we’ve got at the moment
in the
world, because if they’re only there for four, knowing, knowing they’re
going
to be there for four years, or umm, you know, the maximum time that the
American
can be in power is eight years, they want to make a mark, umm, and the
mark,
unfortunately, is generally a black mark, umm, and I think that we
need, to
look, to the future, umm, in a more responsible manner
4.190.
AW: Do you grow
any renewables or use bio-mass, at all on this farm at the moment
4.191.
DO: No, I don’t,
but I mean I’m not a, I’m not a arable farmer, I mean, the only
bio-mass we
might grow if some woodland when we go and cut our, pea sticks out of
the
woods, you know, umm, bean sticks, I mean, a bit of kindling wood, etc,
that’s
all renewable, but I mean, basically no, I’m not an arable farmer, umm
4.192.
AW: Why do you
think the Council Officers were resistant to you putting up those
buildings,
because, because of the location of this farm, or were the buildings
particularly large, or
4.193.
DO: No, they
weren’t, in fairness to them, they weren’t um, they weren’t too bad
about the
farm buildings, umm, in fact I put one up without planning permission
and umm,
it’s now been up ten years so there’s nothing they can do about it,
umm, but I,
I’d, landscaped the site so it was, in the way that it wouldn’t be
offensive to
anybody, umm, and also we had a lot of tree planting and everything,
which I’m
very glad we did, because obviously, the length of time it takes trees
to grow,
if you, as soon as you plant them, as soon as you get on a place, if
you can
start planting up then you, you reap the benefits more quickly, umm,
there
weren’t a problem with that, there were a problem the house here, but
umm, when
I talking about, umm, SODC and their, and their planning attitude, I’m
not
talking about D J Orpwood, I’m talking about generally, talking about,
you
know, how we need to see things, change, because, I think it’s
imperative, I
mean, I’ve got a lot of friends out there who are, who are, starving,
you know,
their business is starving, because they’ve, umm, they’ve just got no
money,
and err, I don’t like it, umm, you know, I’m there as well, and know
what it’s
like, I don’t like it, and umm, I think, I think, what happened last
year with
foot and mouth, has made a lot of, sort of, people who’ve got very
Christian
beliefs, got very emotionally, umm, instable, unstable, because of the,
just
the shear, devastation that was caused, umm, you know, I, I’m
fortunate, I
haven’t got any friends of mine who committed suicide, but I’ve got
friends who
have friends, who have committed suicide, umm, you know I’ve, I’ve,
because
I’m, not that far from London, only forty five minutes from London,
forty five
miles from London, umm, you know, I was having people up in, in, in,
Cumbria
and Northumberland who, were, not getting paid by the Government when
they were
having their animals killed or cleaning and they’ve got no money, and
umm, and
because of my NFU connections, and because I’m not really a shrinking
violet,
umm, people, would, would, get hold of me to see if I could help get
the money
and I’d, umm, you know, they, they weren’t getting money for maybe, I
don’t
know, umm, they just weren’t getting the money, and I could get it for
them in
twenty four hours, so it was umm, it was worth it, and umm, I’m quite
4.194.
AW: Your position
4.195.
DO: I’m quite, go
on
4.196.
AW: You’ve
position within the NFU, that’s for this, is that the, local branch or
do you
4.197.
DO: No I’m
Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire Chairman, three counties,
there’s only,
there’s only two, two, umm, NFU chairmans in the country who have got
three
counties, and I’m one of them, and I, I continually tell the president,
that
I’m one of his most senior, umm, chairman
4.198.
AW: Are there
many members, in, in those three counties
4.199.
DO: There’s two
and half thousand, I’ve got two and half thousand members, yeah, umm,
and umm,
yeah, I’ve, I’ve enjoyed serving them, I’ve enjoyed the job, I’ve made
a lot of
friends in agriculture and in the rural economy, umm, throughout the
country
through it, umm, and it’s something that, I hope in history, it’ll go
down that
I’ve, sort of, contributed well, I hope I have, I mean I’m a giver not
a taker
in life, umm, I think its very, very important, you know, there’s
givers and
takers, and I’m definitely, a giver
4.200.
AW: What lead you
to stand, err, as the err, NFU umm
4.201.
DO: Chairman
4.202.
AW: Chairman is
it
4.203.
DO: Yup
4.204.
AW: It’s
Chairman,
4.205.
DO: Yup, umm,
because I was disillusioned with what was going on, and err, it was
either, get
in, in, in, influence it, or get out, and I decided to do, to do, the
former,
and I was, I was proposed by my local branch, which was Henley, to be
deputy
Chairman in 1999 I think it was, so umm, there was three of us who were
put
forward to be Deputy Chairman, you go Chairman, Deputy Chairman, then
Vice
Chairman, or other way, Vice, Deputy Chairman, and anyway they, they
then
Regional Director said would we be prepared to stand for Vice if we
didn’t get
the Deputyship and the other two said yes and I said, I’m very sorry, I
can’t,
because I’ve only been nominated by my branch to Deputy and so if I
don’t get
Deputy I’ll, I’ll bow out gracefully, so anyway, we went for the, the,
we, the
voting for the, the two, the posts, was half way through the meeting
and so I
asked a question early on, making it quite plain, in my question I was
putting
my name forward, for, for Deputy Chairmanship, and then when it came to
the um,
voting, we had to stand up and promote ourselves, so the other two got
up and
said what good chaps they were, and I got up and said, my name is David
Orpwood, I’m a member of the Henley-on-Thames branch of the National
Farmers
Union, if you want the same as before, don’t vote for me and sat down,
got the
job
4.206.
[Inaudible comments,
probably offering refreshments]
4.207.
DO: Do you want
one
4.208.
AW: umm, yeah, I
wouldn’t say no
4.209.
[inaudible comments]
4.210.
DO: You’re not
cleaning those things are you
4.211.
[recording paused]
4.212.
AW: What’s a
typical working day for you
4.213.
DO: Now, or when
I was full time farming
4.214.
AW: Err, you,
you, you were full time farming until when
4.215.
DO: I suppose,
until about three months ago
4.216.
AW: And at that
time
4.217.
DO: Oh, it’s umm,
I was, was, looking after my animals, umm, I was spending a lot of
time,
hands-on with the pigs, umm, obviously a degree of office work goes
with it,
umm, and I suppose, yeah, I was, was just full time farming, working
dawn to
dusk with my animals, feeding, cleaning, checking, moving things about,
umm,
yeah
4.218.
AW: And until
three months ago, you would have had, was it, five hundred or one
thousand two
hundred
4.219.
DO: No, no,
until, until, err, in December 2001, umm, we decided to go out of pigs,
so we
had four hundred and twenty sows, we had tow men looking after the
outdoor sows
and I looked after all the growing pigs here, so I between a thousand
and
fifteen hundred pigs here to look after myself
4.220.
AW: And umm,
where those two employees, or was those contractors
4.221.
DO: No, they’re
both, both employees
4.222.
AW: And how, how,
long have they worked with you
4.223.
DO: Ones worked
me since, umm, September 2000, err, 1991 rather, and the other one’s
been with
me for eighteen months
4.224.
AW: And they live
locally do they, in their
4.225.
DO: Yeah, in
their own houses, I haven’t got houses to, to supply them with, yeah
4.226.
AW: Is that
something that’s changed a lot, err, since you’ve been in farming
4.227.
DO: What housing
your own staff
4.228.
AW: Yeah, yeah
4.229.
DO: Umm, I
suppose the majority of people still house staff, yes, because the farm
structure is such there’s farm cottages, umm, you know, especially if
you’ve
got livestock, umm, you know, you need people on, on, on hand
4.230.
AW: Do you think
that’s a difference between cereals and livestock, that umm, maybe
people in
arable have gone, they no longer, it’s all contract now they no longer
have
tied cottages
4.231.
DO: No, I
wouldn’t agree with that at all, I think, there is a degree of
contracting but
umm, most, most farming is, most farms run their farms, you know, with
their
own staff and with their own machinery, they might use specialist
machinery
hedge cutter, or umm, you know big bailers or something like that, but
basically they, they either, do farm themselves or they farm, some of
them
farm, err, in, in co-operation with the, neighbours, and one might have
a
combine and one might have a big tractor and so they, sort of, share
the two, umm,
but err, I think your see more of that, or I think, I think, you’ll see
some of
that, but you’ll see, umm, also, contract farming
4.232.
[Telephone ringing
interrupts and David Orpwood answers it, recording interrupted]
4.233.
DO: When your
home is also your office, umm, you know, sometimes it’s difficult to
get away
from it all
4.234.
AW: Yeah, yeah,
Do you, do, are your dogs, umm, do your dogs work on the farm, do they
play an
active part in the farming
4.235.
DO: Umm, my sheep
dog did, but unfortunately I ran my sheep dog over and killed her with
a fork
lift and umm, err that was a major loose, that was a pretty traumatic
experience for myself and my family, umm, but when we, we had, err,
four
hundred ewes last year and umm, sheep dog was, was, was a crucial part
of it,
now, now I’ve got, a meant to be a sheep dog but he’s useless, and he’s
just a
pet, and I’ve got two chocolate labradors who I use for shooting, and a
spaniel
who’s a very old dog now, umm, and we always used to have spaniel and
in fact I
ran over the previous spaniel and we, my, eldest son got very upset, so
we had
to replace it pretty quickly, with one we’d bought in, umm, which is
the one
we’ve got now, who’s now, twelve or thirteen I think, so she won’t last
that
long, err
4.236.
AW: You were
saying, about your, typical working day, when you had the pigs, so what
is it
now, what’s your typical working day
4.237.
DO: Umm, well, I,
I do the pigs first thing in the morning, umm, and then, err, I’m
moving umm,
I’ve set up a company called, called Local Produce for Local People,
and I
fundamentally believe that, agriculture cannot survive in it’s present
manner,
umm, we have, a situation at the moment when we have a strong pound and
a weak
euro, and it is cheaper, in many accounts to import food than it is to
produce
it in this country, purely on the exchange rate, and unless we can
differentiate, differentiate, our produce in the UK, where
farming is going to
get it’s just got nowhere to go, so I’m trying to put local produce, in
a designated
isle, in major supermarkets, and I’m talking to them at the moment, and
I’ve
been advised by the directors of one of the biggest ones to go, just
for, just
for meat to start with, because if your going to go for other things
besides
meat, which would be bread, umm, potatoes, vegetables, umm, milk, etc,
etc,
then I’d be talking to too many director levels and that would be very
difficult, so what I’m trying to do is to develop this company called
Local
Produce for Local People, and Local would be within the County, or
twenty five
miles from that particular store, err, and I want to get away from fast
food
which seems to be moving food from all over the world to wherever, back
to what
I call slow food, or what the Italians call slow food where we, we
generate
more, umm, jobs, err, in our own areas, because we’re doing the
processing and
developing of food in, in that area, umm, the consumer, err is, over
half the
consumers are interested in local food without being able to get it on
the
major supermarket stores, so if we can, promote, produce it, and
promote it, I
believe that they’ll be a big take up for it, and I believe that’s the
way
agriculture got go in this country, umm, we’re going to get less
subsidies in
agriculture, which I don’t have a problem with, as long as we can get a
fair
price for our produce, and I’ve done modules, both working, umm, from
the
supermarket shelf back up to the, farm gate, and vice versa, and err, I
believe
that we can put food on the shelf
4.238.
AW: When you say
modules, what do you mean by that
4.239.
DO: Well, what
I’ve done, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve taken a pig and a sheep and a beef and
worked out
all the cuts, I’ve had some help from the meat and livestock
commission, and
we’ve broken the carcasses down, evaluated them, so I know exactly what
cuts I
can get out of what animal, umm, and, so I can then know, go, because
what ,
what we can put on the shelf, you know, how many pork chops we get and,
etc,
etc, on the shelf, and umm, so I’m basing it on, retail price minus, in
other
words we know what the, the, the, the retailers sellers it, the maximum
amount
that they believe they can sell it for to the consumer, umm, and what’s
happening is the farmers getting, not getting enough, umm, in fact the
farmers
making a loose out of nearly every thing that he produces at the
moment, and I
believe that, that’s short sighted, umm, irresponsible view, and I want
to put,
local foods, as I say, back into the community, umm, I have a lot of
help and a
lot of backing, umm, none of the supermarkets can kick me out the door,
because, that would be politically, umm, dyn, dynamite against them,
umm, while
its not happening as quick as I’d like it to do, setup my company, it
will
happen, and that’s what I want to do, I want to, I want to move back
to,
something, which you’re doing and you touched on and that’s best
practice, and
I want best practice to look at things like food miles, animal miles,
umm,
sustainability of one’s local economy, umm return profitability back to
the countryside
so that we can have the environment, as we have known it and we want
it, and I
think, that umm, the best way you can have the countryside to
develop is out
of profitable agriculture, err, and I think the rural economy relies on
profitable agriculture
4.240.
AW: Who, who else
works in your company at the moment
4.241.
DO: In terms of
who works for it, it’s just myself and my wife, but I use outside
consultations
such as the Meat and Livestock Commission who have done an awful lot
and they’ve
given me, eighteen thousand pounds worth or work, umm, Accenture which
is a
London based company, the largest firm of consultants in the world have
given
me twelve thousand pounds worth of help, umm, I’ve got a, a, market
consultant
who helping me, I’ve got a, umm, human resources person, who sort of,
given me
direction on, on staff, umm, and I’ve got some private people who want
to
invest in it, the sad thing is that, it’s almost impossible to get
public
money, umm, even though it’s meant to be there, for, you know, some
ones, you
know, small person like me in terms of scale of business, to get money
out of
the Government for the DEFRA funding for marketing grants, that are
meant to be
there, err, are just, are just, very, very difficult, I’ve tried and
failed, so
far, but I mean, I’ve been advised by the people who know that I’d be
much more
successful to go for private money than ever I would for public money
4.242.
AW: If that
because, the, the conditions for the DEFRA grants are too onerous, or
4.243.
DO: Umm
4.244.
AW: They’re lead
time is too long, maybe, what reasons
4.245.
DO: Well, I, hmm,
I applied to DEFRA for grants umm, I can’t remember what it was now,
November I
think, or may have been, might have been February, and umm, I put a
business
plan in, they came and saw me, they gave, gave me direction, on how,
what else
I need to put in it, I did it, they came back with one or two
suggestions,
which I did, umm, but I failed to get the grant, and I think it’s umm,
they, I,
I failed because they, they felt that I needed more professional help,
which is
precisely what I was applying for the grant for, umm, I, like
most people in
agriculture are very short of working capital, umm, I can’t afford to
go out
and employ people to do this for me, umm, I’ve got, I’ve got to do it,
the, the
best way possible myself and I feel that the, DEFRA have not helped me,
get it,
but following that, err, I’ve got the support of the Government in what
I’m
trying to do, and umm, I’ve recently been called up to Margaret
Beckett, who’s
the DEFRA Minister, DEFRA being the Department, umm, Environment, Food
and
something or other, umm
4.246.
AW: Rural Affairs
4.247.
DO: Rural
Affairs, err, I thought you’d have it, yeah, and err, I’ve been called
up by
her special advisor, a women called Shelia Watson, to, to Margaret
Beckett’s
Office, to discuss it with her, she’s shown interest in it, umm,
obviously they
can’t, just give me money, the Government can’t, but I’m hoping that I
can use
that contact and, and, umm, power base to help me go forwards, I’ve got
the
support of the, umm, agriculture shadow secretary, err, agriculture
secretary
Larry Whitty, Lord Whitty, I’ve got the support of the shadow DEFRA,
Peter
Ainsworth, and I’ve got the support of Colin Breed Who’s the shadow,
umm, DEFRA
for the Liberal Democrats, so, yeah, I’ve got a lot of people behind
me, Prince
Charles, is umm, on board with me, he supports what I’m doing, he’s
given me
some help
4.248.
AW: Have you meet
all these people that you’ve mentioned
4.249.
DO: I haven’t
meet Prince Charles, I met the rest of them, know them well, yeah, yeah
I’ve
spent a lot of time, umm, networking, I suppose one calls it, but I’ve
done it,
not in order, just to, get to know people, I’ve done it because I think
I’ve
got something to offer, and I want to discuss with them, and, and, and,
umm,
direct them in agriculture, I mean I’ll give you an example, umm, Ann
Winterton
Was sacked by Ian Duncan Smith, I don’t know, three weeks ago, from the
shadow
agricultural umm, minister, and he, he, was replaced by David
Liddington Two
days later I was in David Liddington’s office discussing with him,
where we
should go, and he’s very keen that I should work with him, umm, and
that’s come
through my position in National Farmers Union, because he’s actually
Buckinghamshire, Aylesbury I think it is, umm, MP, and because I’m
Chairman of
Buckinghamshire, Berkshire and Oxfordshire, but Buckinghamshire in his
respect,
umm, I’m someone who he needs to work with, so I’m very keen to do that
4.250.
AW: I was saying
about your typical day, no, and err, you said that err, first of all,
you would
look after the pigs in the morning, umm
4.251.
DO: Yeah
4.252.
AW: Do what you
need to there
4.253.
DO: Yup
4.254.
AW: Is most of
the rest day, err, taken up with, the project you just told me about?
4.255.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
very , very much, so I mean, you know, I might be in London two days a
week at
meetings, umm, you know, seeing one of the major supermarkets, talking
to
investors, umm, getting advice, from people who are there to give
advice, like
the IGD, Institute of Grocery Distributors, Government bodies, umm,
yeah, you
know, umm, err, what I’m trying to do, this company I’ve set up is, is
a
limited company, it’s not a farmers co-operative, and it’s to utilise
the best,
umm, advice and direction, I can, from people who have been doing it
longer and
probably got a greater understanding of the business side than I have,
so I
think that’s very, very important, umm, I have complete confidence that
it’ll
succeed, umm, I mean I’ve taken issue with err, Keith Mitchell and
Charles
Shoulder, the, the leader and the Chairman of the Oxfordshire District
Council,
because I want them to use, Oxfordshire’s talking about trying to
promote, umm,
local foods and I want them to put their money where their mouth is,
and buy
local food into the places where they put food, such as schools,
hospitals, old
people’s homes, etc, umm, and there is a best practice that’s meant to
be used
by these Councils which I don’t believe is, the only one that’s looking
it at
the moment is Norfolk and they look at food miles and local, umm,
produce and,
umm, umm, sustainability of their, of their, farming in their counties
and I
think more should, should do so, and that’s something that I will
challenge
4.256.
AW: Was your
decision, to, umm, to get out of pigs, would you say that was getting
out of
farming, for you, or
4.257.
DO: Yeah, I’m
giving up the sheep and the pigs, yeah
4.258.
AW: Was that, err
4.259.
DO: Front line
farming, I mean, the marketing will be involved will be involved with
the rural
economy and with, umm, umm, trying to develop, err, agricultural
profitability,
umm, which, which, obviously aligns with rural profitability
4.260.
AW: Was you
decision to, get out, well, farming in a sense, err, mostly due to foot
and
mouth or had you made the decision before that
4.261.
DO: No I hadn't
made the decision before that. Foot and Mouth cost me me, um last year,
err, on,
on my budgeted income it cost me, seventy five thousand six hundred
pounds last
year, umm, and err, with as I explained earlier, the pig price from ’98
going
from forty pound t eleven pounds, umm, in, umm, I think it was the week
of
either the 15th or 20th February 2001 when foot
and mouth
came in this country we were just in the position in the pig industry
of seeing
then umm, our price for our commodity increase, quite a lot, we know it
was
happening that week, foot and mouth completely stopped that, umm, we've
seen a
lot of imports, increase in imports of food from the Continent in 2001,
err, after
Foot and Mouth was announced, umm the Minister of Agriculture, Nick
Brown, who
I know well, stopped, umm, all livestock movement for a week, um
when we got
Foot and Mouth in this country, which I think was the right thing to
do, um but
what it did was it opened flood gates of, of food coming into this
country and
if you look in the first two weeks of March, umm, every motorway was an
absolute quagmire of food, coming, you know from the Continent, and
being
spread over this country and it's done, horrendous damage to
agriculture, umm, and
it was the final straw, I just couldn’t, I couldn't see myself to, to,
to break
out of, err, what I saw was a spiral down of my, of my net worth, um, I
consider my bank have behaved particularly badly, umm, they could have
helped
more, umm, we went and something, you asked earlier about, umm,
subsidies in
the pig market, the only subsidy we’ve had in the pig industry was,
umm, I think
it was 2001, well it was 2001, was, what was called the On-goers or the
Out-goers
Pig scheme, umm, and the on-goer was those who were going to keep in
it, were
given, I think it was, two percent or, four percent of their loan
borrowing, by
the Government for two years and the out-goers were given so much per
animal,
umm, I think the out-goers in this country, they got something like a
hundred
and twenty five pound per pig place, umm, where as in Holland they got
seven
hundred pounds, which I thought rather sums it up, and umm, I went on
the
on-goers scheme because I had every intention of continuing farming
pigs and I
had to convert my over-draught to a loan, and in converting it I had to
have a
pay back on that loan and umm, the amount I had to pay, because I’m
paying
capital and interest on the pay-back on the loan, umm, of course with
foot and
mouth my income suddenly got devastated, err, it cost me a lot of money
and
umm, a, with the loss of income and, b, with the bank, umm, making me
payback
capital and interest in that period of time, when, when, it was plainly
obvious
that the, whole of the commodity market, in, in livestock in this
country was
being decimated, I think they acted irresponsibly, umm, they should
have given
me, um, um, a window to pay just interest and not interest and capital,
umm, because
I was so heavily involved politically in foot and mouth, and because I
was so
depressed about the whole situation, like many, many farmers
were, I um, I
wasn't astute enough to realise the problem, I think certainly the bank
should
have come to me, they should have helped me and they didn’t, and umm,
you know
I, I’d been with that particular bank all my life, my father before me,
my
mothers family, had been with that bank, umm, my
4.262.
AW: Did you know
the bank manager personal
4.263.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yup, yup, and I would, you know, I think he’s behaved,
appallingly, quite
frankly, umm, and, when you’ve, they say when you owe a bank a hundred
thousand
pounds you’ve got a problem, if you owe them half a hundred million
then
they’re got a problem, well unfortunately farming is in the former, you
know,
we’re umm, we’re um, we have problems with them, and I personally do
4.264.
AW: Do you think
the Government or someone, err, some other body could have, err, done
more to
help farmers
4.265.
DO: I think they
could definitely help us, and the ways I’d like to see them help, I’m
not a
great believer in subsidies, umm, I’d like to see that first of all,
that they
insist that their armed forces are feed with British food instead of
buying-in
umm, beef from Argentina, from where they’ve got foot and mouth, umm,
New
Zealand lamb, umm, and the rest, I expect they’re buying their chicken
from
Thailand and Brazil, umm, I think we should see that, I think we should
see the
Government pushing in the House of Commons that they should use British
food, I
took issue with Gordon, with umm, Nick Brown about this, who was then
Agriculture Minister and he told me that he could tell, the thirty four
catering companies in the House of Commons what food they should
source, well,
I think that umm, they jolly well should, can you see the French
allowing,
their Government and their armed forces being feed on food from other
parts of
the world, while there’s, their farmers are going to the wall, I think,
I think
it’s totally immoral, I think that there’s no, there’s no, set strategy
in
Government at the moment, and I, umm, I think probably, umm, both
parties have
got a bit to blame for this, err, both, the, the, former party, the
Conservatives and the, and the Labour, but I think, umm, in the terms
of the
last five years, that the amount of money that, has been, lost in
agriculture,
I think that definitely the labour Government should have done more, I
don’t
believe that umm, there was any political will in the Government to
help
agriculture or to see it, see it, succeed or get out of the present
situation,
and, I’m, I’m very well aware there’s only one person in Government
that has
any time for agriculture and that’s the Prime Minister, umm,
thankfully, umm,
although I think on his own he can’t do enough about it, there’s too
many other
things to do, so yeah, I think the Government has got, got a
responsibility,
and I think, by having a slightly, changed mind set, that doesn’t cost
money,
but by applauding British food, and pushing it and working it in every
possible
area they can, including your own Council, umm, I think that things
could
change dramatically, umm, your own Council all it’s food, umm, to all
the
areas, that umm, you supply, schools, hospitals, old people’s homes,
etc, comes
through one company called Brake Bothers and people can’t umm, break
into that,
because they say that if they took, say the bacon away from Brake
Bothers then,
they, would loose a degree of their discount, so in other words, for
someone to
put the bacon in, it’s got to put it in at almost, nothing, and umm,
it’s the
wrong way to go, I think it’s an irresponsible, umm, attitude to have,
for the
long term good of the Countryside and the rural population
4.266.
AW: How did you
first hear about foot and mouth, on the radio, TV
4.267.
DO: Err,
probably, I, I, I just, I don’t remember, but all I do remember is
hearing that
there was something like four hundred and, four hundred thousand
animals were
killed in ’67 with foot and mouth and I just hope and prey we never get
any
where near that, umm, was it four hundred or forty two thousand,
anyway, it was
a pittance to what was killed in foot and mouth last year, umm
4.268.
AW: Did you hear
about it through the NFU
4.269.
DO: I
4.270.
AW: In the
general media
4.271.
DO: Probably in
the general meania, err media, obviously, initially, like most people I
didn’t
have a full understanding of the implications were going to be, umm,
but little
did we know what was going to happen, umm
4.272.
AW: Were you
surprised, err, that, that’s how you learned about umm, foot and mouth
in this
country, through the general media
4.273.
DO: How else
should I have found out about it
4.274.
AW: There, there
could have, umm, well, there maybe other channels, that err, maybe the
farming
press, umm
4.275.
DO: Oh yes, but
these things happen, umm, the farming press comes out once a week, I
mean, I’m
sure that I was, umm, circulated immediately by the NFU, I mean the
NFU, we use
umm, emails, umm, which we find a very satisfactory form of
communication, umm,
the umm, I’m sure, I mean I don’t remember how I found out about it,
but I
probably, got a briefing, instant briefing from the NFU, umm, obviously
heard
it on the radio, umm, one of the suspected farms, umm, in
Buckinghamshire, was
a person who I know quite well, umm, so that had an immediate interest
in me
because it was local and fortunately it turned out it wasn’t his farm
that had
it, umm, I, I honestly can’t remember, umm, I expect I heard about it
from,
through many, many, ways, like, you know, like we all did, umm, but you
know,
if, if, I heard about the September 11th bombing, of the
twin towers
because I happen to have, the television on as it was happening, umm,
that’s
instant, instant media report, umm, the answer to your question about
how did I
hear about umm, err, foot and mouth, I, I honestly can’t remember, it’s
not
important to me
4.276.
AW: In terms of keeping
in touch with what’s happening with what’s happening in the UK, abroad,
in
farming, umm, is the NFU the err, most important err, means for you, or
is it
umm, through particular media or could be anything really
4.277.
DO: Well, umm,
obviously, I have a privilege position in the National Farmers Union
being
Chairman, so I have, I have, instant briefings, umm, things that
important, I
get weekly updates, both from my own region, which is the South East
and also
from London, umm, if there’s a, I mean, umm, part of my job is the NFU
chairman
is to feed information to people so we have, we have meetings with
senior
members, umm, of the industry, I mean, I’ve got the CBI coming next
week, girl
called Mindy Jones, um, Lynda Wilson
4.278.
AW: Let me just
ask you, how often, how often, do you meet err, with your own branch
that you
represent in, in Bucks, Ox
4.279.
DO: Well it’s not
a branch, I mean it’s an area
4.280.
AW: An area
4.281.
DO: Berks, Bucks,
Oxfordshire is two and half thousand people, and it’s not a branch, I
mean it’s
a, you know
4.282.
AW: A region
4.283.
DO: It’s an
important module, of a region and umm, we, we, we have, about four or
five
meetings a year, for the County but I’m probably doing, a day a week of
NFU
work, umm, somehow or other, I mean a fortnight ago, was fortnight ago,
no week
ago on Friday, we had a, a, meeting all day in London with the
President, all
the County Chairman’s throughout the Country, I think in ten days time,
I’ve
got a, meeting with the Meat and Livestock Commission, with all the
Chairman
throughout the Country, umm, I, I had a meeting on Friday, I think it
was, last
Friday, with Preydinal Naywoods who’s the new Chief Constable of, of
Thames
Valley, with my regional director, I talk to my policy advisor for
Berks, Bucks
and Oxfordshire, most days, umm, yeah, I keep in touch, I mean, you
know it’s
important, I need to know what’s going on, I also talk, talk to
colleagues of
mine in other sectors of agriculture, milk, potatoes, dairy or
whatever,
arable, so I, you know I, I know in my own mind, that when I’m talking
about
what’s going on, that I umm, that I, I, I come from a sound knowledge
and every
month, I, I write an article in our, in our magazine, umm, err, about,
it’s
called the Chairman’s Comment, it was called the Chairs Comment, when I
umm,
became Chairman, but I don’t believe, I, I’m an inanimate object, I’m a
Chairman, not a Chair, umm, I do it in my own particular way, I like to
add
humour into it, I, very, very rarely, if ever talk about myself in it,
umm,
what I do, do at the end, the, the last paragraph of each article I
talk about
my children, umm, people enjoy that, umm, and I try to get some things
going
through umm, so let people have an idea what’s happening, I mean, an
example,
on the 26th of March, Sir Don Curry, who wrote the first
Food, Food
and Farming Commission report, umm, meet with Tony Blair at 10 Downing
Street
for a summit on the future of farming on the future of farming on 26th
March on the day, and in the evening he came and addressed Berks, Bucks
and
Oxfordshire, I mean I have that, I have that influence, umm, on 12th
April I
set up an Any Questions, I had Lord Whitty Here, who’s the Secretary of
State
for Agriculture, umm, Peter Ainsworth Who’s the Shadow Secretary of
State, umm,
George D’Silva who’s Director of Compassion in World Farming, Clive
Aslett The
Editor of Country Life, and a guy called Eric Mont Gregory Who’s a
research
student in Oxford, who’s a world expert on foot and mouth, umm, and I
organised
that, with the chairman was Jeremy Paxman, umm, I’ve got, as I say,
I’ve got
this girl called Minsey Jones, Minsey Wilson, coming from the CBI
4.284.
AW: Was that the
meeting
4.285.
DO: In June
4.286.
AW: Sorry, was
that the meeting that was held at Oxford Brooks
4.287.
DO: That’s right,
yeah, I organised it, I set it all up, I know all those people, umm,
and I got
them there, umm, where you there
4.288.
AW: I wasn’t, but
I, I, know of it
4.289.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
it was very good, umm, then my final AGM, as Chairman, when I stand
down is 26th
November and I’ve got Lord Plum who’s an ex-president of the National
Farmers
Union, ex, um, MEP, err, he’s a leader, he was the, umm, the leader of
the
European Parliament, he’s come to speak to my AGM, umm, Boris Johnson
been umm,
Baroness Byford who’s the Shadow, umm, Agricultural Spokesman in the
House of
Lords, yeah, I make sure I get the right people there, because I thing
it’s
important that I should do the job to the best of my ability, umm, I
have these
contacts, I know these people, and umm, you know it works both ways, I
use them
and they use me
4.290.
AW: So when you
speak, I, I, um, when you talk with them, that, I, is it, in your
position with
the NFU, it is presumably
4.291.
DO: Not
necessarily, umm, I know all these people personally, umm, I, I mean,
I’m sure
your find this hard to believe, but I’m thought of in some areas, as a
bit of a
loose cannon, in um, in my thoughts, a bit outspoken in some areas, um,
I’m,
I’m, one of the things I’ve learnt in my term of being the NFU
Chairman, is to
listen, and umm, if only more people would learn to listen, the world
would be
a better place in my opinion, and so not only do I go to give
information I
also go to receive it, umm, I do, you know, I met, as I say, I met, um,
Shelia
Watson who’s Margaret Beckett’s special advisor, I met her, that was
through my
business, of setting up, um, Local Produce for Local People, I then
meet, I
then had lunch that day with Peter Ainsworth who’s shadow DEFRA, both
on
agricultural matters, through the NFU and also this project Local
produce for
Local People, because I need the support of those sort of people
4.292.
AW: Let me ask
you about, the, the neighbouring farmers, err, the neighbouring farms,
how
many, how many farms are abut your, your farm here
4.293.
DO: Umm, I don’t
know three or four, five
4.294.
AW: Are they
livestock farmers as well
4.295.
DO: Not all of
them, no, one grows Christmas trees, he’s a specialist in Christmas
trees, umm,
one is a large arable farmer, who fattens pig, he would buy the sort of
pigs
like I produce, umm, another ones, got a breeding herd of pigs, and
also got
cattle, another ones got umm, a lot of the land let out, but they keep
their
own flock of sheep, um, and ones, um, doesn’t farm themselves, it’s all
contract farm for them, so, yeah, you know, diversity
4.296.
AW: Do you see
them through your work in the NFU, how regularly do you think you, umm
4.297.
DO: You mean my
neighbours
4.298.
AW: Hmm
4.299.
DO: Well, not
really, I mean none of my neighbours I would thing, are particularly
strong NFU
people, umm, they err, I’m sure they support me being Chairman, umm, in
fact
one of them was a person who put me forward to be deputy chairman, umm,
err, I
see them more socially, you know, in the street, or on the roads, umm,
don’t
really have streets in the Country, umm, than I would do through my NFU
role
4.300.
AW: So maybe you
see them in the lane, when you pass
4.301.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
yeah but I mean, they would, they would contact me and they do contact
me, if
they’ve got an issue, umm, that, they thing I can help them with,
through my
NFU position, yeah, and I would do
4.302.
AW: So images of
farmers, leaning over the hedge discussing err, how their, livestock
are, are,
just err, something in the past, it just doesn’t happen
4.303.
DO: Yeah, sadly
it is, but umm, the best way you learn about your livestock is leaning
on the
gate and watching them, umm, sound, sound a silly thing to do but err,
umm,
observation, is terribly important umm, of livestock, umm, but what’s
happened,
is umm, you know, you asked me earlier on, how I’ve seen agriculture
change, is
that the, umm, number of livestock kept, per man, has increased
dramatically,
almost to the point when some of the, what I would call, old fashioned
good
husbandry, of, of, looking at your stock, umm, there isn’t the time to
do it,
but I mean, I’d, I’d, I would err, myself and also my, my, Derek who
works for
me, umm, both of us, would, would feel pretty confident that we could
tell a
sick pig just at a glance, u mm, you know, you don’t need to, to, spend
a, lot
of time looking at it, but, umm, maybe if you had more time, you’d
catch that,
sick pig a little bit earlier, I don’t know
4.304.
AW: You have some
sheep as well, when did you decide to, err, keep sheep
4.305.
DO: Umm, I can’t
remember when I started keeping sheep, I should think it was the early
‘90s,
umm, some land, two hundred acres, a hundred and eighty acres of land
became
available, umm, to me, and I decided to take it up and have a flock of
sheep,
so I bought, I built up a flock of five hundred ewes, which we kept on
that
land, and a bit of other stuff, and umm, I then, because of the demise
in ’98
or ’97, ’98, I actually reduced my, my numbers of pigs, numbers of
sheep
dramatically, to help pay off some of the, immediate debt, but I mean
obviously, the amount of money you get for sheep isn’t a great deal, so
although I did that, it didn’t actually save me, make me a lot of
money, it was
almost, almost hand-to-mouth at that stage, in fact, I would say since
1998, my
livelihood and my living has been hand-to-mouth
4.306.
AW: So since ’98,
would, did you, err, thing about, err, diversifying, giving up farming,
umm,
going into other crops, or livestock
4.307.
DO: Umm, I
certainly didn’t think about giving up farming until, probably, October
last
year, 2001, umm, yeah, I mean, I’ve had, had this, buzz, to, do
something about
the marketing of produce, for quite a long time, but it’s actually
trying to
work out how to do it, so yes, I mean, that I would see as a major part
of my
diversification, yeah, yup
4.308.
AW: But you
decided to stay in pigs
4.309.
DO: Yes, because
that’s what I knew, umm, yeah
4.310.
AW: Do think
generally there’s a, there’s a crisis in farming in the UK
4.311.
DO: Definitely,
without any doubt what so ever, you can’t run a business, umm, with the
capital
requirements of agriculture without making a, without making, making a
profit,
and umm, profit’s not a dirty word, it’s a word that I think is
terribly
important, all businesses need to make a profit, umm, otherwise, they,
they go
to the wall, and I think it would be absolutely criminal, and I think
it would
be the legaslee, the legacy, of any Government or Prime Minister to let
agriculture to get to the state that it is at the moment, and umm, I
think err,
you know, it is a renewable source, of course, and we, we were talking
about
renewals sources and we should be making sure we use ours to the very
best of
our ability, and instead of you know, shipping, umm, organic vegetables
from
Spain, at God knows, how many calories per unit we bring them over
here, umm,
you know, we have the ability to do it here, we, we should have
encouragement
and direction to do it, and farmers need direction at the moment
4.312.
AW: Do you think
the crisis for you, err, what does the crises mean to you, umm
4.313.
DO: What the
crises that I’m saying is in agriculture
4.314.
AW: Yes, yup
4.315.
DO: Well, the
fact that I’m getting out, I mean I’m getting out because I can’t
continue to
have a living, and doing it, it’s not a, it’s not a chosen source, it’s
one
I’ve, to some extent, been driven towards doing, umm, and err it’s been
devastating on myself and family, umm, over the last three or four
years, I
mean as I said just now, living from, hand-to-mouth is not the way that
anyone
wants to live
4.316.
AW: Does your
family help out much with the farm
4.317.
DO: Yup, yup,
yup, my umm, my youngest son is very keen, he’ll help when need be, my
wife,
very helpful on the farm, my eldest son isn’t particularly interested,
although
he’ll help if he, I need a hand, umm, and my daughter’s twelve, she’s
not
really that interested in it, she’s got other things on her mind, got a
horse,
yeah
4.318.
AW: How, how does
your wife help in the farm
4.319.
DO: Well, for
instance at lambing time, I mean she was, she’d spend an awful lot of
time up
on the farm, I mean, if err, because, because up until a month or so,
ago, I’d
been looking after the pigs here on my own, if I need a hand, if it
needs two
people to do something, you know, she might well help do it, umm
4.320.
AW: Does she play
a part in the business decisions as it were, what you might call
business
decisions
4.321.
DO: Umm, in a
limited level, a limited level, not a great level, you know, I discuss
things
with her if needs be
4.322.
AW: And err, your
children, they also play a part, sorry, I can’t remember their ages
4.323.
DO: Err, Thomas
is, seventeen, umm Jamie’s fifteen, Elizabeth’s twelve, umm, yeah,
sorry what
was the question
4.324.
AW: Do they play
a part in
4.325.
DO: No, no, not
decision, not decision making, they, they’re at school so, you know,
they’re,
they’re at school from eight in the morning to eight at night, umm,
five, six
days a week, so they’re, they’re want their own time, but I mean, yeah
they’re
help if needs be, you know, if, if I’m going to London for a meeting or
something
and the kids are here, one of them will do the pigs for me, yeah, can
we just
stop a minute
4.326.
AW: Yeah, sure
4.327.
[Recording paused]
4.328.
DO: Jamie
4.329.
AW: So they do
play a part, part in the farm
4.330.
DO: Yeah, they do
umm, you know, I’ve umm, this morning I’ve been, had to clear up from
the do we
did last night, which was a do, which I did as a commercial, umm,
contract for,
for cooking two pigs for six hundred people, and umm, then you’ve
turned up and
err, I haven’t had time yet, to go and do at the pigs, and umm, it’s
Tuesday,
it’s a bank holiday, and I probably don’t want to work all day long,
yeah
4.331.
AW: You were
doing a pig roast last night, is that right
4.332.
DO: Yeah, yeah, I
did two, yeah, yeah
4.333.
AW: Does that,
does that, kind of work, umm, form, a significant part of your
livelihood
4.334.
DO: Hmm, no it
doesn’t, umm, it’s something I quite enjoy doing, it’s for a local
event, I was
asked to quote to do it, umm, a lot of people there I knew, so it was
quite fun,
I like being at, I like doing things, I’m not a great, umm, cocktail
party sort
of person, so if I’m working, and, you know, doing all that, and
meeting the
people, then I get the best of both worlds, as far as I’m concerned,
and also I
make a bit of money out of it, umm, I do a farmers market, twice a
month, or
have done, up to now, umm, and that’s been something which I would say,
umm, I
didn’t realise at the time, it’s been invaluable to where I want to go,
in
terms of my marketing project, because it’s taught me a bit about the
consumer,
and the retail trade, umm, and err, I do it, umm, the main benefit to
me, is,
is getting cash, pound notes, but I mean I, I declare, I declare that,
so I
don’t have a tax advantage on that, it’s just nice having some pound
notes in
your pocket, especially, if it don’t go to the bank account, with this
bastard
bank manager
4.335.
AW: So it works
for you financially, err, the farmers market
4.336.
DO: Yeah, in
fairness, I mean, I don’t make a lot of money out of it, umm, the
costs, you
know, the costs are too high, umm, especially the processing costs, too
high,
killing and cutting, but umm, yeah it’s something that I’ve learned,
it, I
would say is helping me a great deal with my next stage in my life
4.337.
AW: So it’s not a
significant part of your income, it sounds like, but it sounds like
the, the
feedback, or the direct contact you have with the public is useful
4.338.
DO: yeah, very,
very useful, you can find out, the sort of, what people want, umm,
learning
about packaging, learning um, there’s forty percent of my customers in
Henley
and Wallingford where I do the farmer’s market, are one or two people
households, so, you know, you’ve got to, got to, relate to that, they
don’t want
to buy, you know, two kilos of meat, you know, they want to buy smaller
bits,
so you learn all this, and that’s, that’s very useful
4.339.
AW: So,
presumably you, you arrange, err, err, for the pigs to be killed, err
4.340.
DO:I take the
pigs to the abattoir
4.341.
AW: Right
4.342.
DO: To be killed,
then I have to get back, sometime in next two or three days, pick them
up,
bring them to a butchers shop, umm, we then, the butcher then cuts them
up, we
pack it, and price it with him
4.343.
AW: Have you ever
thought of doing any of that err, yourself
4.344.
DO: Umm, well I’m
not, I couldn’t do the killing, because you need a, need a licensed
premises in
which to do it, umm, and it’s got to be cut in a licensed premises too
which I
obviously haven’t got and it’s not really an area I want, want to move
towards,
umm, umm, because I, umm, why don’t I want to move towards it, I, just,
don’t,
umm, it, it’s so expensive because you’ve got to put in cold room
storage,
you’ve got a, umm, have plastic walls, I mean it, you know, the cost is
just,
just too great, I mean the only that, that could be done, umm, is for a
group
of farmers to get together to do it, and that, was, something that,
that you
know, going back to co-operation, collaboration, that’s something that
could,
that, is probably worthwhile considering in an area
4.345.
AW: Are you, do
you have any farm assurance schemes here
4.346.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
both FABL and the, umm, pigs scheme, ABM, yeah
4.347.
AW: And why did
you decide to join those
4.348.
DO: Umm, well
the, the pig’s scheme, umm, because,
4.349.
AW: That’s the
FABL one is it
4.350.
DO: No, pigs is
ABM, FABL’s umm, Farm Assured Beef and Lamb, umm, the pigs scheme
was
actually, initiated, and set up and developed by Thames Valley Pigs,
which I
was Director of, and we thought it was imperative we should do this so
it gives
us a market advantage, in fact we’ve never gained from the market
advantage,
umm, we actually thought we were never going to get more money for it,
but what
we did thing we were going to do was that, it would be a criteria that
you had
to have to sell your pigs, and that we are right umm on, and umm, I
think it’s
the right way to go and I think we probably need to strengthen it and
with my
marketing scheme Local Produce for Local People, umm, being a member of
a
quality assurance scheme will be, crucial to being able to sell pigs or
sheep
or cattle through our business
4.351.
AW: You say umm,
it’s important to, be as assurance scheme as a criteria, is that, is
that, err,
demanded by the, the abattoirs, or
4.352.
DO: No I think
the consumer, I think the consumer, I think, and also to some extent
the
retailer, umm, I think, they want an independent verification that,
that the
farm’s being run in a welfare friendly correct proper manner, and I
think, I
don’t have a problem with that, I mean, I personally, umm, and in
favour of,
licensing farms, umm, and I’d like to see farms being licensed, I’d
like to see
them being licensed, umm, paid for by the Government, err, and, a
neighbour of
mine, whose the Pig Veterinary Association, is actually, a person who’s
very
keen on this, and put it in my mind and err, I see that could work to
the
benefit, the great benefit of, not only the farmer, but for the umm,
the
processor, the retailer, consumer, and also the Government, because one
of the
things that came to light when we had foot and mouth disease, that the
Government had absolutely, what animals were where, the movements, or
anything,
I think to have, to have that knowledge, umm, and a strong bio-security
system
set up on our farms would be, would be, very, very beneficial, and the,
goodness knows how many billions it’s cost, this Government for, for
foot and
mouth, that money could have been, you know, you could save that money,
umm, by
doing it, and I think because of this, umm, this translocation of meat,
all
over the world, a lot of it from unknown sources, means that the fact
of
having, umm, other such diseases as foot and mouth, SVD, swine fever,
or
whatever, are more prominent with this lacks import rules on food, so I
think
it’s important we know what we’re doing
4.353.
AW: So some of
some your pigs, umm, but not many
4.354.
DO: Not many, no,
about, umm, about ten or twelve a month
4.355.
AW: And the rest
are sold through, Thames Vally
4.356.
DO: Thames Valley
CAMBAC Marketing Group, yup
4.357.
AW: Okay, and
they would, they would, err, take the pigs from you and they would sell
them on
to the abattoirs, etc
4.358.
DO: No, no, no,
no, excuse me, they would umm, I sell my pigs to another farmer who
fattens
them, we don’t fatten pigs, umm, at the farmers market what we sell is
suckling
pig, something completely different, umm, the Thames Valley pig’s, I
would ring
them up and say, I’ve got three hundred pigs to go next week, they
would then,
have, have a buyer, they’d match the two of us together, they’d
organise a
lorry for me, err, the hauler would ring me up and say we’ve coming to
pick
them up at seven o’clock tomorrow morning, we’d then have them sorted
and we’d
load them on the lorry, and they would go to the, the buyer, purchaser,
umm, we
would, the purchaser, or the lorry driver would give the, Thames Valley
CAMBAC,
the number of pigs on the load and the weights, and umm, I would be
subsequently paid
4.359.
AW: Have you
considered diversifying, umm, obviously your livelihood is now
changing, err,
with the work your doing, your local food work, etc., umm, but have you
considered diversifying, out, outside of pigs and sheep, into, into
err, well,
could be Christmas trees
4.360.
DO: No I haven’t
because, umm, err, I haven’t got the land, the land where I keep my
livestock
on, is grass land, that is rented from other farmers, okay, so I’m, I’m
not in
the position to do that, the only land that I own, that I have total
control
over is my own land here, which is where I live and I’ve got the barns,
which
is a total of sixteen acres, on that I’ve obviously got may house, my
gardens, my
barns and everything, roadways, so no, I’m not in a position to do
that, the
only diversification that I can do within my own farming, is to let my
own
barns, for, for umm, non farming use, which is what I’m doing
4.361.
AW: Have you seen
the wildlife change much on this, err, farm, since you, you took it on
4.362.
DO: Umm, not
generally no, umm, we’ve got a good diversity of livestock, err,
wildlife here,
anyway we, we got badgers, we got foxes, unfortunately, we got red
kites, which
you’d seen earlier, umm, we got a vast array of birdlife, umm, we’ve
got,
orchids, we’ve got, umm, fantastic, umm, fauna, flora rather, umm, no,
I think,
err, the only way I would say that we’ve, we’ve kept the balance going
because
we shoot the woodland, which, although it’s not mine, I, I’m part of
the shoot
and run it, umm, we’ve, we’ve managed, with good shoot management you
get, umm,
an increase in overall wildlife, umm, and so, yeah we’ve, we’ve, yes,
we’ve
helped with that
4.363.
AW: Is that shoot
something that you would say is part of your livelihood, or just
something you
participate in
4.364.
DO: Oh, no, no,
that’s just a hobby, it’s just a bit of recreation
4.365.
AW: You spoke
about the farming crisis, in this country, in the UK, do you think
there’s a
farming crises, elsewhere, err, in Europe, or in the World generally,
what’s
4.366.
DO: Umm, no I
don’t think in Europe there is, I think the Euro, umm, has given us a
thirty
percent disadvantage, against other European countries, so that’s
obviously
umm, holding up pretty strong, umm, I would have assumed that
Argentina, going
through a particularly difficult time, umm, but then, their whole
economy is
going through a difficult time, umm, the Americans are, umm, have been,
bailed
out by their Government, their Government has given their given their
farmers
two point nine percent of their GDP, umm, whereas we get one point nine
percent
in Europe, umm, we’ve got significantly more farmers in Europe than
they have
in, in America, so they’re been bailed out of it, umm
4.367.
AW: Can I just
ask you, do you have much contact with farmers abroad
4.368.
DO: Not really,
no
4.369.
AW: They’re,
they’re are some Farmers Links schemes I think or
4.370.
DO: No, no, I’m
not involved, I’ve got a chum of mine, who used to work for me and farm
for
America, in fact sent me a postcard the other day, umm, coyotes are big
problem
to him, with their outdoor pigs, err, and who was saying they’re
brought their
farrowing sows inside, and it’s increased his number of pigs per litter
by
three pigs a litter because of the coyotes, so yeah, umm, so no I
don’t, I
don’t generally have much to do with farmers abroad
4.371.
AW: Let me ask
you this, I’m not quite sure of this myself, but integrated farm
management,
that’s, is that, is that, just related to arable, umm
4.372.
DO: Integrated
farm management, umm, could be interpreted two ways, couldn’t it, it
could be,
umm, integrating your own farm management, within your own business,
or, or
integrating it in, in, in with other, other businesses, umm, I think, I
wouldn’t use integrated farm management as an expression for, within
one’s own,
umm, but in terms of co-operation, I think there’s a lot to be, to be,
umm, to
be said for that, I mean one of the things I want to do with my Local
Produce
is umm, to actually, umm, to have farmers groups, so you know, you, you
can
discuss, you know, if you’ve got a group of farmers who are supplying
you in an
area, let’s sit down and discuss what you’re doing, what, what you
find, good
out of what we’re doing for you, umm, and vice versa, where, where are
pitfalls
and strength and weak, almost do a SWOT analysis, umm, and you can use
that in
integrated farm management systems, umm, I mean, I don’t, I’m not a
hundred
percent certain where you’re coming from, but that’s how I would read
the
question
4.373.
AW: I think
there’s a scheme called Leaf
4.374.
DO: Leaf, yup,
yup, that’s umm, really Leaf is to, umm, demon, to have farms that you,
you,
open to the public, umm, there’s a couple, couple near here, err, I
think
they’re a very, very good idea, I think umm, agriculture is an
incredibly
business, whereby, everyone can see what you’re doing, but umm, no one
actually
knows what you’re doing, so I think it’s got a double edged sword and I
think
to explain to people why you’re doing things, umm, is, is right and
proper,
umm, especially, you must bear in mind that most of the stuff that we
produce
goes into people’s bodies, I think that it’s important that we get it
right
4.375.
AW: Are there
many experts that help you, out here on the farm, for example arable
farmers
might have agronomists
4.376.
DO: Yup, yeah, we
have vets, umm, yeah we have people who are specialists in their
fields, feed,
breeding, umm, nutrition obviously
4.377.
AW: Do you call
on them, or, do, are you part of some programme or
4.378.
DO: No, yeah, I
mean I do, I mean, going back to this, umm, licensing farms, one of the
big
problems I see it, is that, because of the quality assurance schemes,
you get
the vet out to do your quarterly quality assurance scheme and the vet
charges
whatever he charges now, I don’t begrudge him, whatever he charges, but
because
we’re not making a profit, you said to the guy, right I want you to
come out, I
want you to do this scheme, and go, you know, I don’t want any messing
around,
because every minute you’re here costs me two quid or whatever, umm,
whereas
what they should be doing, they should be coming out and they should be
looking
at the farm, the system, the bio-security, umm, the whole thing, and,
and, that
way, I think you’d get a, better, umm, you’d, you’d get safer food,
you’d get,
umm, why I say safer food is because then you can monitor, the
pitfalls, etc,
that are going on, in the business, umm, you know, where you’re looking
after
animals, your crops, etc, you’d also get, umm, better bio-security,
umm, you’d
have more transparency, although it could in a confidential way, so
that there
is a, there is a, very firm, clear, umm, cause of action, umm, where
your
animals are going or not going, umm, so, yeah, the flow is known, umm,
you see
most farmers don’t know, where their produce ends up, when it leaves
the farm
gate, you know, they know it’s going to Joe Bloggs, the merchant and he
says
it’s going to such and such a mill, but apart from that, that’s all
they know,
they won’t know go on to a shelf of, at Waitrose and there’s one of
their lambs
on there, and I think until we know, have this sort of information, we
can’t
really go any further forward, because you can look at a bit of lamb
and say,
oh that’s not very good, I wouldn’t produce it like that, little do you
know
it’s yours
4.379.
AW: Do you know
where your, where your, animals end up
4.380.
DO: Nope, nope,
no, umm, because the guy I sell them to, umm, doesn’t really want me to
know,
anything about them, but also, you see, he doesn’t, not, not only that,
but I
get no feedback about how well my animals do when they get to him, you
know, if
he’s, he’s loosing animals umm, or, they have a check, or whatever, you
know I
have no feedback at all, and I think that’s disgraceful
4.381.
AW: Is that
because you don’t sell directly to the abattoirs, you sell via the
marketing,
the Thames Valley
4.382.
DO: CAMBAC, no,
no, because, I, I think I’d have greater feedback from Thames Valley
CAMBAC
that I would through the abattoirs, abattoirs do not want us to
be involved
beyond, beyond the farm gate, umm, and I think that’s wrong
4.383.
AW: Do you think
they would have got that kind of information from markets at all
4.384.
DO: Livestock
markets
4.385.
AW: Yeah
4.386.
DO: You could do
if you went and talked to the buyer because what normally happens at
the
livestock market, and I’m not a livestock market man, but what normally
happens
is that you go in there, and umm, there’s three or four buyers, you
know,
they’re buying for different abattoirs, or different, well they’re
buying for
abattoirs going into a retail chain, so yeah you could do that, that’d
be more
transparent, I think it’s wrong, I think we should have, we should have
a
greater understanding, I mean one of the things, that they say in the
curry
report is, a reconnection to the food chain, umm, and no one wants it
but farmers,
the retailers don’t want it, the processors don’t want it
4.387.
AW: How much
control do you have over setting the price that you get for your pigs
4.388.
DO: None, none,
we’re price takers, not price setters, not price makers, we’re price
takers not
makers, and I, and that’s something else I’ve got a problem with
4.389.
AW: There isn’t a
period of time when you can decide whether to sell or not to sell, and
so
influence the price in that way
4.390.
DO: Well, things
like milk, and pigs, and poultry, the answers no, because your, you
know,
you’ve got a bulk tank for your milk and when it’s full, it’s got to
go,
otherwise you can’t milk the next day, I mean we have pigs, we’re
producing, or
we were producing pigs every week, and we need to, you know, we need to
move
the pigs on to get the next lot in, umm, yeah, it’s a chain, umm, they
call it
intensive farming I think, umm, I call it feeding a large population
off a
small island
4.391.
AW: What, what
part do you think, err, supermarkets play, now, do you think, do you
think they
have an influence, and have they had, when you went into farming did
they have
much influence
4.392.
DO: Oh I think
the influence of supermarkets has certainly changed, I mean, you’ve got
a, umm,
you’ve got a pyramid system now, which is very broad at the bottom and
very
thin at the top, at the bottom is the producers, at the top is the
buyers, lots
of producers, very few buyers, that gives you, a buyers, a buyers
market, if it
was the other way round, if it was a funnel system, with very few
producers and
lots of buyers, it would then be a sellers market, umm, farmers are,
historically, umm, very, very poor to non existence in their marketing,
and we,
we need to redress this and, individual farmers won’t do it on their own
4.393.
AW: In what way
do err, supermarkets influence you, here, on this farm, or have they
done in
the past
4.394.
DO: No way at
all, not at all
4.395.
AW: Do they
insist on particular breeds, weights
4.396.
DO: No, they
wouldn’t know
4.397.
AW: Assurance
schemes
4.398.
DO: No, no,
they’d have no idea, they, they don’t buy pigs, they buy cuts, they
sell
product, we sell commodities, umm, I mean, I’d, I don’t have an axe to
grind
with supermarkets, they market eighty five per cent of the food that’s
sold in
this country, we should work with them, not against them, I had a
meeting with
one of the, umm, well it was Sainsburys actually, a fortnight, three
weeks ago,
and I was sat in the waiting room and umm, got talking with to two guys
who are
from one of the major processors, and they said what do I do, and I
said I’m a
farmer, oh you’ve come to visit the enemy have you, well I think if
we’ve got
that attitude going through our industry, we’re never going to go
anywhere, I
don’t consider the supermarkets the enemies, they’re very shrewd, very
switched
on businessmen, the problem they’re got is their costs are too high,
umm, and
they, they pass their costs on down to us, umm, to take price out of
our
commodity, we need to have stronger, firmer, better marketing, and we
can’t
have that if we don’t have a relationship with them, we don’t know were
our
products going
4.399.
AW: One of the
assurance schemes, is organic, have you ever considered going organic
4.400.
DO: No, not at
all, umm, I think the organic market, umm, I, I, I have no problem with
organic
production and I think organic production in this country is the best
in the
world, umm, one of the problems I see with the organic system is they
bring in
food from abroad, umm, with dubious organic credentials, to compete
against
ours and yet again we’re looking at this import situation which is
undermining
what we’re doing, err, I’ll give you an example, in Spain, they, they,
produce
a lot of lettuces out there, and they’re, they’re organically produced,
they
are irrigated with human sewage to the point of picking, umm, and,
that’s what
they call organic, I don’t want it, I don’t want it, can you just stop
a sec,
Jamie
4.401.
[Recording is paused]
4.402.
AW: That’s Jamie,
that’s your son is it
4.403.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
his mates, mates staying with him today, his mates umm, actually the,
the son
of the, the umm, marketing manager, MD really of Thames Valley CAMBAC,
who’s a
very good friend of mine, guy I’ve got a lot of time for
4.404.
AW: Umm, you mentioned,
I think, the exchange rate, earlier on, umm, it sounds like a very
significant
factor, err, for you as a, pig producer, or has been
4.405.
DO: Err, yeah, it
is, if you track, if you track profitability over the last twenty
years, it,
it, tracks the exchange rate, if you look at the early nineties when
the pound
weak against the Deutschmark umm, farming was very profitable, umm, as
the
pound, umm, strengthened against the Deutschmark, and latterly against
the
euro, in the late nineties and early umm, part of the twenty first
century,
umm, we have a thirty per cent disadvantage against our competitors in
Europe,
umm, and we have something called Agrimoney compensation which the
Government
has, plainly, refused to, to draw most of it down, it’s umm, it’s drawn
down
some of it, but there’s seven hundred and fifty eight million pounds
that they
could have drawn down which they haven’t, which I think should have
been drawn
down in the last two years because of the devastation in the industry,
I can
see of times previously when agriculture was profitable such as ’94,
’95, when
the previous Government was there, and they didn’t draw it down, umm,
and I can
sort of understand why they didn’t, because the, the farming
fraternity, it
wasn’t a crucial requirement, like it is now, umm, that seven hundred
and fifty
eight million, umm, could have done an awful lot of good to
agriculture,
because they haven’t drawn it down, umm, they’re, they’re, if you don’t
draw
down within a certain period of time, that particular, feasibility
goes, umm,
last year, the last fiscal year, umm, the UK got one point five billion
pounds
rebate from the European budget, and it got four and a half billion
pound worth
or rebate on the abatement system from the Fontainebleau agreement,
which gives
you six billion pounds, umm, and that’s money that the Government has
already
spent so they’re going to double, double account it now, and that money
could
have gone back to agriculture, and I think it should have done, umm,
you know,
whether you say there’s twenty or thirty percent, of the population
that rely
on the rural economy, umm, if it’s twenty percent, umm, that gives you
seventy
two billion, seven hundred and twenty billion rather, of which the
Government
umm, would have, got for agriculture, and of the agrimoney compensation
our
Government had to put seventy one percent in, and the, Europe put
twenty nine
percent in, that’s part of the Fontainebleau agreement, umm, the, the
money we
got back, the six billion would have paid for, you know, really, kept
agriculture, umm, in a much stronger situation, umm, and of course
they’d have
got some of that money back out of taxing profitability, I should thing
they
get very little money from agriculture at the moment, through taxation
4.406.
AW: When you
started, umm, with your pigs, ’79 was it
4.407.
DO: Yup, 5th
November
4.408.
AW: Umm, how
important do think, exports err, were then, and also applies to the
exchange
rate
4.409.
DO: I’ve no idea,
umm, I’ve no idea
4.410.
AW: Were you
aware of it
4.411.
DO: No, no
4.412.
AW: When you
started
4.413.
DO: No, no, I was
young, keen, twenty, thirty year old, and umm, or twenty eight, seven
year old,
no, I wasn’t, wasn’t interested in politics, I was much more interested
in
getting my business going, umm, I believe I had a market, umm, that I
could
sell pigs profitably at, and that’s all I was interest at the time, you
know,
as you get older, you get involved in different things, and I got
involved in,
in, in politics
4.414.
AW: Where would
you sell the, umm maybe it’s a while ago now, but do you remember where
you
would have sold your pigs to, initially
4.415.
DO: Yeah I know
exactly where I sold them to, I sold them to a farmer, as I explained
to you
earlier, umm, down the road at three weeks old and he fattened them,
yeah, I
used to take them down there, used to load up my tractor and trailer
and take
them down there
4.416.
AW: And would he
have taken them to market, or was
4.417.
DO: No, no, he
sold them through Thames Valley Pigs, he was a director then
4.418.
AW: Oh right,
right
4.419.
DO: Thames Valley
Pigs was a very important part of this area’s development, umm, in I
suppose
the ‘80s and ‘90s, no the ‘70s and ‘80s
4.420.
AW: When you
retire, do you think you’re, who, do you think your children will take
over the
farm
4.421.
DO: Err, you’ll
have to ask them, it’s not my decision, umm, I’ll support them in
whatever they
want to do, but no, I doubt it
4.422.
AW: You, you
don’t have any particular expectations
4.423.
DO: I mean, I’ll
have a house, and, and, where we live with, with a bit of land and some
buildings, I mean, umm, if my children want to go farming, and I’ve
made umm, money
out of err, my Local Produce for Local People, I’ll help them, if I
can, umm,
but I have no intention of telling my children what to do, they must,
they must
do what’s best for them and what they want to do, we’ll help them,
we’ll guide
them, we’ll support them
4.424.
AW: Have you
seen, umm, you neighbouring, any of your neighbouring farms
amalgamated, err,
since you’ve been here
4.425.
DO: Umm, to some
extent, yeah, yeah, amalgamate or contract, contract some of their
business out
to other farmers, or whatever, yeah
4.426.
AW: And how much
has this, umm, you’ll probably draw on your NFU knowledge here, how
much has
happened in this area generally in South Oxfordshire, is that been a
significant trend
4.427.
DO: Umm, I would
think, umm, I couldn’t put a figure on it, but yes, I would think,
would think
it’s, it’s, significance importance, and I would have thought,
specially, and
I’m looking in my crystal ball now, over the next two years, umm, most
of the
amalgamation is obviously in arable sector, umm, I think we’re going to
have a
very strong harvest this year, umm, I can’t determine the quality of
it,
because that would depend on the sunlight we get between now and
harvest, but I
think we’re have a very good harvest, umm and I think we’ll see prices
down to
probably the same price they were in the early ‘70s, with all that’s
gone on
with our costs, since then, umm and I think a lot of arable farmers are
going
to go through a, two, very, very difficult years, umm, I think, it’s
one of the
areas where we need to concentrate on our marketing to make sure we get
the
best value we possibly can, because umm, you won’t see the price of a
loaf of
bread go down, but you might see the price wheat half, or has halved,
and umm,
there’s something wrong in the system isn’t there, I mean at the
moment, the
average consumer, of their net, disposable income, one point two
percent goes
back to farmers, umm, of their net disposable income they spend ten
percent on
food, okay, of which twelve percent, of that ten percent goes to
agriculture,
hence the one point two percent going back to farmers, and umm, you
know, that,
that’s not sustainable, in 1971 thirty percent of it, that income went
on food,
umm, now it’s down to ten percent, umm, and it’s got to redressed
4.428.
AW: What do you
think, the err, publics image of farmers
4.429.
DO: Very mixed I
would have thought, hmm, very mixed I would have thought, umm, but I
think we I
don’t think we’re perceived as the villains that we might have done a
number of
years ago, umm, but I think really to get the answer you ought to go
and ask
the public, I can only speculate
4.430.
AW: Do you think
they have a realistic, err, err, understanding of farming
4.431.
DO: I’ve no idea,
I would have thought you’d get a different answer for that from the
people in
the rural community and the people in the towns, umm, we are very
conscious,
umm, that we want to try and explain, best way we possibly can to
people, what
happens in the countryside, hence things like Leaf farms, umm, and we
saw, a
fortnight ago, the NFU launch, launching a umm, putting up signs on
the, in
fields telling people what’s going on there, we have, we have children
out
here, or have had children out here in the past, school children out
here, on
numerous occasions, about what we’re do in the farm and the
countryside, we
have a, we get the fox hounds out here, so they can, they can visit fox
hounds,
we don’t err, we don’t tell them whether to support hunting or not,
they make
that decision, we take them down to the woodlands, give them some
woodland
management, we take them through, umm, an area of chalk down land, with
working
ant hills, orchids, lots and lots of little, umm, plants and
everything, kites
and everything, umm, obviously take them to the farm, the pigs, the
sheep, umm,
hands-on, might have some shearing going on, or something, have chicks
hatching, so yeah, I think it’s very important that we, we talk to the
public
and, as I say you get PR of course
4.432.
AW: How did you
make those links with the school children that came to visit, etc
4.433.
DO: Well first of
all, obviously I use my own school, umm, my school my children are at,
umm, and
then it just sort of grew from there, there’s liaison officer in
Oxfordshire,
called Hailley something or other, who does, school visits, and err, we
talk to
her, umm, yeah, you know, use the resources that out there to do it
4.434.
AW: If you were
giving advice to someone who was farming today, what would you say
4.435.
DO: Err, I, I,
can’t answer that question, because you’re, depends who, what their
background
is, their financial situation, whether they’re inheriting a farm, umm,
whether
they’re got the experience, it’s, it’s, I couldn’t give that question,
I
couldn’t answer that question, I’d support them if they wanted to do
it, umm,
err, with the right resources behind them
4.436.
AW: Okay, this
one is a complete change, did you, did you meet your partner, your wife
through
farming
4.437.
DO: Err,
indirectly yes, my wife’s a chief, and she’d, she’d moved out of
London, where
she was cooking for the Guardian, the editor of the Guardian newspaper,
umm,
and umm, so she cooked for all the, the royal family and all the MP’s
of the
day, and senior businessmen, and then she came out here to set up a
restaurant
for someone, and started it up, which she did, and she was living in
the farm
house, because, the hmm, where I kept my pigs, because the farm
was actually
London based, umm, with a company in London, and so I met her in the
farm yard
and everything, and one day I asked her out, and it went on from there,
really
4.438.
AW: I think I
probably asked you all of the questions that I have, what do you think
of the
recommendations of the Food and Farming Commission to switch from
subsidy
production to environmental subsidies
4.439.
DO: I don’t think
that’s actually what it says, umm, I think we’re talking about
modulation, umm,
and modulation is not actually a word, in the err, umm, in the English
language, umm, what concerns me about modulation is that, umm, at the
moment,
ninety percent, hmm, nineteen per cent of our agricultural budget goes
to
administration, umm, in foot and mouth, forty per cent of the foot and
mouth
budget went to administration, and as I interpret, in my own mind, is
that they’re
going to take money out of direct subsidies, which will probably take
them,
cost them ten or twenty per cent to take them out of direct subsidies,
and put
them in, indirect subsidies, which will probably cost another thirty,
forty
percent to deal with, so if you take, a hundred million pounds, if
they’ve umm,
cost them say, ten percent, to take them out of direct payment, you
then got
ninety million pounds which is then going to cost them, thirty percent,
umm,
to, to put it into indirect payments, that’s another err, thirty
million
pounds, so your down to sixty million pounds, so the hundred million
pounds,
then becomes sixty million pounds, what Don Curries saying is that he
wants to
move a broad shallow system, whereby you use the administration
facilities
you’ve got a the moment, such as the IACS form, whereby you don’t loose
all
this money through administration, umm, I support the Curry report
because I
think if we don’t support it then we won’t be in the top table to
discuss it as
the National Farmers Union, and I’m wearing my National Farmers Union
hat now,
umm, I would question certain things in it, but I think overall, umm,
Don Curry
and his team have my support and I’ve, I’ve publicly said so, umm, at
the NFU
AGM and at other meetings, umm, but I am sceptical about how Government
will
use modulation, but I am quite sure in my own mind, that what we are
going to
end up, in, in the umm, any form of subsidy coming from the Government
in
agriculture is going to be less, you know, it’s going to get less not
more, so
we’ve got to make sure that we, umm, involve an administration that we
loose as
little as possible, but on subsidies, it’s one thing I feel very
strongly
about, and umm, hopefully, it will go down in prosperity, in your DVD
or
whatever you’re recording this on, is that at the moment most of the
commodities that farmers sell are sold at a loss, if they’re selling it
at a
loss, who is subsiding who
4.440.
AW: You say
they’re selling at a, a loose, is that, that’s because the subsidies
support
them in breaking even
4.441.
DO: No, no, the
commodity price, if it cost for instance, twenty p, to produce a litre
of milk
and they’re getting fifteen p, right, so you know, the farmer is
spending five
p a litre on milk to produce it more than he’s getting, consequently
he’s
subsidising the, the, he’s subsidising the food chain, umm, you know,
it’s not
sustainable, umm, you know, we’re, we’re loosing livestock in this
country in
droves, and, and I think it’s umm, it’s immoral and it’s wrong
4.442.
AW: Do you know
many other farmers that have got out of farming
4.443.
DO: Yup, yup,
[inaudible], I’m not alone, by any means
4.444.
AW: Many
4.445.
DO: Umm, err, I
couldn’t, I couldn’t quantify it, at the moment, I haven’t really given
it any
thought, but err, I can think of a number just off the top of my head,
yeah
4.446.
AW: Are you
surprised by, by who’s getting out of farming, do you see a pattern
4.447.
DO: Hmm, no, no,
I don’t see a pattern, I mean what, what I think you probably see is
people of
my age getting out and younger, and yeah, I know some of them, that’s,
that’s
the ones that, I’m not happy with, umm, the older ones say, you know,
fifty
five got no natural heir, are milking cows, they’re sick and tired of
getting
up at five every morning and they want a bit of time for themselves, I
mean the
last day I had off, was, it’s now the 5th or 4th
of July,
of June 2002, the last day I had off from work was the second of, err,
January
2001, I’ve worked every single day including weekends since then, and
I’ve had
a gut full of it, I’m tired, I’m knackered, err, and I’m angry with it,
I
suppose, umm, and I think a lot of people are in the same boat, um, you
know
I’ve got a young family, we, we can’t afford to go on holidays, umm,
and umm, I
think it’s rather sad, you know, someone, who’s, who’s an opinion
informer,
proactive member of society, and it’s own industry is being
driven out because
of my own desire to succeed, what an indictment of an industry, I ought
to have
your job
4.448.
AW: One thing I
haven’t asked you is, is there much bureaucracy, err, in farming
4.449.
DO: Hugh, yeah,
there’s a lot of bureaucracy in farming, you know that as well as I do,
and a
lot of the bureaucracy and form filling, fillinf, is just for the sake
of
filling in the forms, I mean, it’s, for no sound, good reason, back to
the jobs
for the boys, umm, let’s, let’s make the thing clear, coherent, and
simple to
administer, I mean, I, people, farmers do not have the time, to fill in
their
forms properly, cause they get too many bloody forms, umm, and they’re
too
tired
4.450.
AW: Actually one
thing I was going to ask you is, were you here when the M40 was built
4.451.
DO: Umm, yeah, I,
I was but I wasn’t, not living here, no I wasn’t farming in my own
right, umm,
it was probably built, in, about, umm, ooph, was probably built in,
between ’75
and ’80 wasn’t it.
4.452.
AW: Yup
4.453.
DO: I mean I can
remember, I can remember, going to looking at the cutting through
Stokenchurch,
I remember going to look at them doing that and thought what a
fantastic bit
of, umm, engineering, but no, I mean it’s had no influence on my life
4.454.
AW: That’s what I
was going to ask you
4.455.
DO: I mean the
only influence it’s had on my life is that I can go down to junction
six, like
you did, get the Tube to London, umm, don’t pay for the car park, and
spend
nine pound for a, a, a return ticket, and I think that’s fantastic,
and, and,
that is the way that we’re going to reduce, umm, carbon dioxide,
greenhouse
gases, etc, because it’s a user friendly system, I mean, what they
probably
want to do is move it somewhere, put a car park up and charge us to, to
park
there, umm, you know, then, they’ll loose all the good it’s done, I
think the
way it works at the moment is fantastic and I think it should be
encouraged,
and I think if we had more, I mean that’s what I call, broad and
shallow
administration, something simple, umm, and at the end of the day, the
more
simple it is the likely we are to do it
4.456.
AW: Will you now
be selling off part of your land, here
4.457.
DO: No, no, no,
I’m giving up, the land I tenant, but the, the only bit that I own is
in this
ring fence where we’re sat now, which as I said is sixteen acres, umm,
and I
will, hopefully retain this, umm, I can’t sell it off anyway, because,
because
of the dear old planning laws, umm, in, in, SODC have tied the house to
the
land, umm, which will be contested, or has been contested, umm,
agriculture,
because my house has what’s called an agricultural tie on it, it’s been
contested at the umm, European Court of Human Rights and I believe in
2003,
umm, the agricultural tie on this house will, will not exist, umm,
which will,
obviously make me a very wealthy man
4.458.
AW: Are there
other constraints
4.459.
DO: Or, or, not,
a very wealthy man, more, give me more money in my pocket, I wouldn’t
want to
be mis-interpreted, sorry, you what
4.460.
AW: Umm, are
there other constraints on planning because of where this, err, where
your farm
is located, umm, is it an Area Of Outstanding Natural beauty
4.461.
DO: Yeah, yeah,
it’s an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, umm, but I don’t see that
as a
criteria, because if you think about it, most of the listed houses, in
fact all
the listed houses in this country were built prior planning permission,
or if
you let people get on and build with the umm commodities in their
vicinity, you
end up with what people want anyway, umm, I think, what, I don’t have a
high
regard for planners, umm, I think that they, umm, have a little
understanding
of how the community and the population works, and I think the most
important
thing is not where it’s built, but how it’s built
4.462.
AW: I think
that’s just about it really
4.463.
DO: Well done
4.464.
AW: What’s the
greatest disadvantage of living here on this farm, and what’s the
greatest
advantage
4.465.
DO: Advantage and
disadvantage
4.466.
AW: Yeah, for you
4.467.
DO: Both, no,
both
4.468.
AW: Err, could be
the same one
4.469.
DO: The greatest,
the greatest advantage as far as I’m concerned is the older I get, the
more
reclusive I get, umm, I have my own little island here, I mean it’s
fantastic,
umm, I live in a, an area of much wildlife, which I love, umm,
security, my
daughter can keep her pony here happily, my kids can ride their
motorbikes
round the farm and everything, I think that’s fantastic and that gives
me a lot
of pleasure and joy, umm, disadvantages I suppose the disadvantages,
umm, of
most country people, is that we’re, we’ve now lost all our service in
the
countryside, no shops, no pubs, umm, and what goes with it and
everything I
want, I have to drive to, using fossil fuels, at umm, significant
expense when
I think the Government takes about eighty per cent, of every time, or
ninety
percent I fill my car up with petrol they take it in tax and I think
there
should be a two tier tax system
4.470.
AW: You’re not
far from Watlington here, is that, err
4.471.
DO: I’m in the
parish of Watlington
4.472.
AW: Right, is
that an important, umm, do you think of yourself as a member of a, a,
the local
community, does the village, umm, is it an important social centre for
you
4.473.
DO: No, I mean, I
have a, obviously, I have , umm, err, my chums around here, whatever,
err, come
from many different facets, I mean, I’ve got good friends in Watlington
don’t
get me wrong, you know, and I’m one of the people who are probably very
well
known in Watlington, umm, as I am in the neighbouring villages here,
umm, but,
as I said earlier, you know, the older you get, the more reclusive you
get and
I have ample opportunity of being more reclusive by living here
4.474.
AW: Do you
children go to school there
4.475.
DO: No my
children, two go to college at Ship Lake college which is a secondary
err,
secondary private school or public secondary school at Ship Lake which
is the
other side of Henley, and my daughter goes to a school in Abingdon,
which is
also a private school, umm, Our Lady’s Convent, so yup
4.476.
AW: Did they go,
I think there’s a primary school there, there must be actually
4.477.
DO: In
Watlington, yeah, there’s a primary and a secondary school, yup, yup
4.478.
AW: Did you
children attend that
4.479.
DO: No, never,
they’ve been through the umm, they been through the private system, all
the,
excuse me, as I did, umm, I know no different, fortunately, I’m not
sure I made
the right decision, I’m not sure if I can afford, afford for them for
them to
stay there, but I’ll find a way somehow, of making sure they stay there
4.480.
AW: Thanks very
much, David
4.481.
DO: That’s
alright
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